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Liberty in BNW

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Qarthadast, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. Mercure

    Mercure Chieftain

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    The finisher for liberty is mutch more better in my opinion. You may get a great scientisc. This is an awsome bonus.
     
  2. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

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    I'd cry if I had to see someone getting a GS with Liberty finisher instead of GE :(
     
  3. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    I often use it for GS's. Go cry your eyes out :D

    Although most of my liberty games end up war-mongerish, and I prefer the AI to burn hammers on wonders for me. Especially the wonders that don't really need to be in capital.

    In G&K I'd even sometimes use it on Great Prophets. I dunno how effective that will be in BNW--with Piety at Ancient, seems like the AI tends to soak up all the religions much quicker than before and may not even be able to finish Liberty in time.
     
  4. JibJabberJab

    JibJabberJab Chieftain

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    I'll have to disagree with that, +15% growth and free aqueducts is much better then a free great person imo, i'd sacrifice my great engineer for a wonder that does that every time over the other wonders you could build.

    Also i don't actually think that liberty has a hammer advantage over tradition. Remember, tradition does not need to build monuments and aquaducts, and the extra growth + extra border growth means more/better worked tiles = more hammers. Tradition also gets the 15% wonder production bonus compared to the 5% to all buildings on liberty.
     
  5. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Interesting thought: What if there were a World Wonder (perhaps called Aqueduct of Segovia) that provided 4 free aqueducts in your first 4 cities and +15% growth in all your cities, but as a practical matter, at higher levels, you couldn't hard-build it, and could only get it in most games by bulbing with a GE from the Liberty finisher.

    I suspect that would be a pretty high-demand WW and a frequent use of a Liberty GE (more compelling than Hanging Gardens' 6 food + Garden and probably at least as attractive as the G&K version of Petra).
     
  6. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Results are going to vary on different difficulties.

    If you are on Prince, you might literally be building Wonders for 1/3 of the time that you're buliding buildings, and if so, the Hammers even out. On Diety, the idea of building that many wonders would give the experienced player a laugh.

    And difficulty affects the usefulness of GE's as well. By the time you complete Liberty on Diety, most of the Ancient/Classical Wonders are gone. Even if you complete it super fast, you're behind on tech, and when the AI builds wonders in 5 turns you have no shot to get the Wonder as long as they have any tech lead, Engineer or no. So you are looking at a Renaissance or later Wonder. At that point, lots of people just use the GE on the NC. I figure since an Academy gives about the same Beakers as the NC, I'd rather plant that, and now that in BNW you actually have a chance to generate GE's, it's much better to get the kind of GP you need right then.


    Regarding the speculation on the Wonder mirroring the Trad finisher, I don't think it would be all that popular at all. The Temple of Artemis does arguably more, and people aren't sacrificing on their early builds to get it. Meanwhile, the Leaning Tower of Pisa is a very sought after Wonder for both Cultural and Science VC's.
     
  7. GaelicWarrior

    GaelicWarrior Chieftain

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    Pros go liberty
     
  8. casualplayer

    casualplayer Warlord

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    I am getting really fond of a Liberty/Masonry beeline start in BNW, primarily because of Pyramids. Almost always good unless you have Trapping/Calendar luxes. The turbo improvement synergy along with having nearly all the Workers you could ever need by Turn 40 makes for a really solid, versatile platform to develop from. You pop & chop out 2-3 more Settlers and connect them with a network of 1 Turn Roads. You can finish the SP tree if you really need the GP but most likely I will float to another tree and save the Golden Age and GP for later. Several times I've started Liberty, got Pyramids and then opened Tradition just in time to start building/chop out Hanging Gardens. Attainable on Deity.

    G&K tactics are still decent but not optimal in BNW. The crushing opener isn't known yet so try new things, then let us know.
     
  9. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    do you prefer aiming for the free settler first or taking the worker policy? (citizenship)
     
  10. CornPlanter

    CornPlanter Emperor

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    It saves building time and lib doesn't make up for it really. Maybe they even up much much later, given how important is to have everything ASAP due to snowballing advantage.
     
  11. Autokrator48

    Autokrator48 Chieftain

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    How is this possible O.o I have to try that... I assume you go liberty till collective rule, meritocracy, skip to Tradition, go legalism and landed elite? So you get 4 good cities by turn 80? How does the NC fit in all this?
     
  12. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    I've found the liberty tree more enticing, due to the lack of early gold making tradition a slower proposition. Have you seen Tabernak's BNW 3 city tradition thread? It looks very viable, but compared to the GnK one, feels a little bit like a neutered bulldog.
    I've also found that I like to mix and match a lot more than I used to. E.g as Maya I will dip into piety early before or around liberty, then finish it off later. As Polynesia I'll always open Tradition then take liberty for the quicker borders. In fact I do that quite a lot if I can't decide early and want flexibility, but then want liberty after seeing my land. As the Incas I'll take the liberty opener after a few tradition policies for the pyramids and/or the worker policy. As Byzantium I've started well with all 3, and their openings are something I'm exploring at the moment and seem very rich and complex. The list goes on.
    I actually think the devs did pretty well matching up the Tradition and Liberty, and I'm now much more happy to play the land and/or civ. The piety addition is also interesting, though I haven't made it work as a full tree before anything else yet.
     
  13. Autokrator48

    Autokrator48 Chieftain

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    Hey, I tried what Casualplayer said, but it clearly doesn't work: I had the perfect start possible (played Ramses, had the pantheon that boosts wonder production by meeting two religious cs, had marble as my ressource + gems), put two policies in opening liberty and taking the production boost, then went Tradition took the wonder boost, but, after I built the pyramids (beelined masonry and started doing the wheel after),the Hanging Gardens were gone...
     
  14. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    As a G&K tradition player, I actually went liberty for my current BNW game. I was on a tight continent with one other civ and needed a bit quicker expansion to claim the sweet spots. This also gave me more workers since there so many luxuries to work, which gave me hammers to get trade routes up. But the problem ended up, as expected, I couldn't get the growth needed for both production and for the many specialists. I moved forward into patronage, rationalism and the tenets without ever going back to tradition.
     
  15. Autokrator48

    Autokrator48 Chieftain

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    I really don't see how you get both Hanging gardens and pyramids on Deity, if you beeline one and manage to get it, you usually lose the other one.
     
  16. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    With the exception of my Vienna game, I've found my Tradition starts are just way too slow. Liberty allows me to hook up the resources and build the caravans/cargo ships to give myself the gold to buy my way into a powerful position.
     
  17. pntran84

    pntran84 Chieftain

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    Liberty? Fail! Tradition? Fail!

    Go pick Shaka and go full Piety first up! ;) Come on, I put random personality, and I am yet to see Shaka with peace loving piety. ;)

    Sometimes I think which policy tree to start maybe situation, and certain civ UA is influential as well. In grassland without forest or nearby hills, having the extra hammer and free settler to get the second/third city that is more productive would seem sensible. Vice versa, in an area that is productive, getting Tradition to fast grow and make use of such production is a good compliment.

    Depending on the map terrain and proximity of other civs at start, getting Liberty is not about spreading as much as possible, but as soon as possible. Sometime, you may only have a 4 cities Liberty for sometime due to lack of land. If land is not grabbed fast, it will means your plans maybe off track, harder to survive later game, or simply unwinnable.
     
  18. StrideColossus

    StrideColossus Warlord

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    Bear in mind both of these wonders are gated on different SPs, so it's possible that the AI in that game couldn't build HG because they'd all gone Liberty.

    I've seen this happen in one BNW game, but t'other way about, I eventually built Pyramids in the Ren era I think :crazyeye:
     
  19. Autokrator48

    Autokrator48 Chieftain

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    Very true, but he made it seem like it was consistent xD
     
  20. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    Yeah, it's not. You get one early wonder and then maybe oracle. You can also (or instead of Oracle) additionally get Colossus, Great Lighthouse or Petra, depending on the starts of the AI.

    Liberty's pretty good now for going tall and then pushing a second wave of expansion (after you stabilize your happiness w/ religion or CS on top of happiness national wonder). 3 workers w/ liberty and pyramids bonus is more than enough for 3 cities (including roads) and a slight stretch for 4 cities (with roads) but still doable. It means your second wave cities aren't going to be in amazing locations, but the AI goes tall enough now and still sucks at ocean exploration that those random islands or mountain-ed-off areas w/ 3 fish and a lux are still pretty attractive. There was a place with a diamond and 2 crabs that the AI didn't settle until turn 250-ish in my last Immortal game. But, Tradition still feels more powerful (as it did in G&K).

    Also, the classical/ancient wonder pantheon is actually not as good as the +1 hammer pantheon for early wonders. It only surpasses +1 hammer very late even in your capital (although, I did that math for Tradition, maybe the +1 hammers tilts the math for Liberty in its favor).
     

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