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Liberty opening--When to build NC

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Dan4GS, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. Dan4GS

    Dan4GS Chieftain

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    So I've worked out my Tradition strat pretty well thanks to posts in these forums but really struggle with liberty. If I'm going liberty, I'm playing a Civ that uses ICS/REX or both, and can manage that (for the most part) but never end up getting the NC because I'm building cities too quick.

    So the question is when should you build the NC? Should you stick to just capital and go straight for NC then expand? Build it after a certain city #? Vary every game?

    Any tips/advise for liberty openings would be much appreciated. Thanks!
     
  2. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Yeah, I think it depends. But, you dont want to put it off too far. Waiting to get it with just 1 city would be too long. So, sometime after city 2 and 3. City 2 should probably help you research Philo anyway and you might want to buy the libray in city 2 or 3 depending on your gold, to help speed research.
     
  3. alpaca

    alpaca King of Ungulates

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    You could try to rush-buy a settler with gold gained from luxury sales, then build libraries (if you like, you might build a settler in your capital while you build the lib in your second city, but don't settle it yet, but on higher difficulties you probably want military units) and the NC and then go wide. Ideally, you'd try to time it so that you get the +50% settler production bonus right after finishing the NC. This should give you an early NC but probably won't affect your growth very much.

    I haven't experimented enough to make this an absolute statement, though, and everything of course depends on map specifics. If you can get a ton of luxuries, for example, you might want the third settler earlier and rush-buy a library in that city.
     
  4. Tachii

    Tachii Procrastinator

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    Like everything, it's contextual. but the usual route I go on Immortal is:

    Get free worker -> Sell luxury -> Buy settler (around turn 30-40) -> Wait for the free settler policy -> Rush build the library in the third city -> Build NC.

    Now if for some reason I have enough gold for a worker before I even got the free worker policy, it would be like this:

    Buy Worker -> Get free settler policy (again around turn 30-40) -> Sell luxury to buy another settler -> Rush build the library in the third city -> Build NC.

    In the meantime you should sell excess luxuries and spend depending on the map outline. If you are close to a warmonger, sell your stuff to him and buy military units as soon as he nears you (don't buy it right away). If you're not close to a warmonger spend your gold on a non-hostile CS (preferably maritime/military). Also probably build your library ASAP once you get writing, but when you get writing is contextual. I almost never beeline for philosophy, since I need key luxury techs and I usually build the stonehenge if I know I can finish it before turn 50.

    I never tried not having secondary cities going down the liberty tree, so rush NC in the capital is likely not an efficient idea. Especially since it could leave you vulnerable and missing out on key luxury techs if you beeline for philosophy ASAP.
     
  5. oPlaiD

    oPlaiD Chieftain

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    This really depends on your strategy, doesn't it?

    I mean if you are going ICS with Maya or Ethiopia you'll probably have 14 cities or something before you even can think of building the NC. You won't be growing your capital for a while anyway so the science boost from it isn't as required, but you can still get it later once you do start growing a bit taller / have no other way to expand but war. Depending on difficulty though getting enough libraries up may be tough.

    I'd be interested to hear an opinion from someone whose done a complete ICS fast expand strategy with regards to this, since the responses so far have not been explaining it with regards to that strategy. And it's a viable strategy in all difficulties.
     
  6. TandooriChicken

    TandooriChicken Chieftain

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    Haven't tried ICS in awhile. Very map- and civ-dependent, obviously. All rules changes since release have been in the direction of nerfing REX/ICS to the point where it's really only viable (on deity plus/minus immortal; any strat is viable below that) for civs with a powerful early building. For everyone else, building a tall core and then deciding on expansion vs turtling is the way to go. Happiness limits make tech very multiplier-dependent, and the multipliers are most favorable in tall empires. Note this opinion is based on standard or smaller maps, standard lux distribution. I haven't played larger maps in a long time.
     
  7. Erneiz Hyde

    Erneiz Hyde Warlord

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    I usually take the free workers first. Last time I played the Mayans in a marathon emperor standard map, I was able to finish the NC just as I get my free settlers policy (using GL to pop Philosophy). All the gold I obtained during this period goes to atlatlist. Obviously not really viable in higher difficulties since you need the GL free tech to time it just right. Also the earlier free worker isn't really justifiable if there isn't a decent farming area or no calendar lux.

    For a more flexible (wonder-less) approach, you might want to take the free settlers first and buy your first worker.
     
  8. Agent Cooper

    Agent Cooper Lynch's Creation

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    Agree with the generel notion that you should get the NC as early as possible. If you've got 1-2 additional cities by the time building the NC should start , make sure to trade off luxuries and save the gold for rush buying libraries if needed.

    On a related note though, I've pretty much stopped opening the Liberty tree in my recent games, in favor of Tradition. The delay of the free settler is a pretty big nerf imo. Unless I get lucky and get culture boosts from huts or a very early cultural CS friend/ally, it just comes to late for my typical opening strategy.
     
  9. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    I am not denying the power of the National College. But there are some map/civ situations where wild expansion takes precedence, and Liberty still makes that easier.
     
  10. Erneiz Hyde

    Erneiz Hyde Warlord

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    Let's discuss this a bit. What situations would it be to make wild expansion takes precedence? My guess is if you start rather separated from everyone else and you occupy the entrance to a piece of land. I once had Gandhi expand WAAAY from his capital and past my city to settle in a good spot (but I was late to expand, since there's no AI in immediate vicinity). Of course, I took it from him without much defense not long after, but it was rage-worthy when he settled there in the first place.


    Btw about NC, the only time it's useful is early when you need all extra beakers asap. If you expand too much, the hammer cost would be so high it won't do justice to the effects of the NC, and you wouldn't even get to build it if ever.
     
  11. TandooriChicken

    TandooriChicken Chieftain

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    When there are large numbers of desirable city locations but you want to stay friends with everybody. Generally, the most economically efficient approach to "settling" is to build a powerful army and let the AI settle cities for you (you build the reusable, improvable units; let the AI build the one-use-only Settlers). Conversely, if there are no AIs close enough to compete for city sites, there is no rush to expand. You can sometimes even delay cities 2/3/4 with no big problems. However, if you need to settle some key (contested) spots quickly without initiating a bunch of wars, Liberty/REX may be the way to go (although obviously less helpful since the policy rearrangement nerf).


    I get what you're saying, but, at an increment of 25-30 hammers per additional city to build it (standard pace), you would need to build a lot of additional cities before the NC becomes a negative cost/benefit proposition. Clearly the earlier it is built, the better, but there are very few scenarios where I would consider not building it at any point in my civ's development.
     
  12. oPlaiD

    oPlaiD Chieftain

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    Well part of the other issue with getting NC later is that more of your happiness will be spent on number of cities vs. citizen count, so you are unlikely to have a larger city where the NC benefit may be larger.
     
  13. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    As others have noted, it depends on your difficulty level, civilization, geography, and neighbors.

    I tend to play Emperor and can usually get GL if I beeline it. In such a case, I research Calendar while building GL and then get Philosophy as my free tech, letting me build NC, which I like to do before settling my second city.

    After building a scout, I often build:

    - Shrine (can be skipped if you are a certain religious civ, or get lucky with ruins/CS or going straight for SH)
    - Granary (sometimes will rush buy it if I have a good gold start)
    - Monument (may not build it if my capital is near desert and I am going for Petra and going to get Legalism; may delay it if I am going science and want to delay my culture buildup)

    After that, my top three preferences are: Stonehenge, GL, and NC

    Generally (up through Emperor), I find that if I do Stonehenge and GL as my first two, I can get both. If I insert NC (GL -> NC -> SH) there's a larger risk I might miss out on SH unless I chop a forest or two. It also depends on what religious beliefs I plan to choose and how I'm doing on faith (if I'm choosing Religious Community I might move SH up first). Ideally I will be able to scout out some of the other AI's by this point.

    With DLC, it may be a bit tricky if I want to sneak Temple of Artemis somewhere as well.



    Sometimes I will delay the NC if I want a second city sooner. This is most likely if there is a sweet Natural Wonder nearby, or if I have neighbors and really need to claim a choice piece of land. In such cases I prefer to get NC after my second city builds a library, but there have been cases where I don't build NC until after my third or fourth cities (but that is rare).
     

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