Liberty or Tradition ? Which tech to get first ?

I'm not sure if this is good advice. Perhaps those more experienced players could comment on this strategy. But, I like to cherry pick between all of the first 3 polices. Tradition, Liberty, and Honour.

I usually go Tradition, and get free monuments with policies 1 and 2. Then I unlock Honour for the +6 culture vs. Barbarians; but I don't take any of the policies in Honour. Then I get the +10% wonder construction in Tradition - and build Stonehenge. Open Liberty, and take the left side of Liberty for the fast settlers and extra production. Compensating for the slow workers with Great Pyramid wonder, and leaving the Golden Age for later. The happiness policy in Liberty isn't useful until I have roads. After getting the left side of Liberty, I switch back to Tradition and get the two growth bonuses - saving Oligarchy for when I have more military.

I usually don't go very far into Honour, but this depends on how aggressive my neighbours are, or how aggressive I need to be. Usually, I will take the right side of Honour for the extra happiness, culture, and gold. Often, with a big army and lots of cities, the right side of Honour has good synergy with Oligarchy in the Tradition branch.

With this opener I find the policy acquisition is really fast. Especially, when I open with a monument, delay free monuments, and get +10% wonders instead for Stonehenge. But my production starts to go a little flat at about turn 30 or 40.

Tradition is the best option 90-95% of the time. Liberty is the best option 5-10% of the time. If you chose Liberty when you should have chosen Tradition you're screwed. If you chose Tradition when you should have chosen Liberty you're actually going to do okay. I tend to default Tradition and play that. If you're playing with NQMod this is not as clear-cut.

So, if this is true. How do you recognise that 5-10% of openings where Liberty is the best opener?
 
I'm not sure if this is good advice. Perhaps those more experienced players could comment on this strategy. But, I like to cherry pick between all of the first 3 polices. Tradition, Liberty, and Honour.

You don't say what level you are playing at, but I'm guessing it is one of the lower or intermediate levels. At the higher levels, particularly Deity, the pressure from the AI is such that you cannot afford to meander through the Social Policies picking things up here and there. On Deity, the AI starts with two Settlers, a couple of workers, several military units, not to mention several Techs. They are typically seven to nine Techs ahead of you for a hundred turns and more. Wonders disappear like snow in summer. It is common to see Stonehenge, The Great Library and other Wonders built in the first 25-30 turns. If the Celts are in the game, they may get a religious Pantheon on turn 5. Pretty much all the AIs are going to have two cities by turn 5. It is quite possible for them to build their second city four tiles away from your capital on turn 5.

Basically, at this level, experience teaches you whether it is worth trying to found more than three cities -- in some cases, it may be hard to find space for two, never mind three. A combination of factors then tells you what to do. If you are playing a strong war-mongering civ and have relatively weak neighbours close by, you are likely to go Liberty or Honor and try to kill the neighbours as quickly as possible. Instead of founding cities, you capture them. And you let them build the Wonders, which you then capture. Equally, if you find you have a strong war-monger near you, it is probably advisable to go all out building an army, because at around turn 60-70 they will come and try to kill you.

The other important factor is the terrain. Cities demand luxuries. Happiness is a severe limiting factor on higher levels, and you can only expand if there are luxuries that you can improve, and either sell or exchange with the AI civs.

Basically, everything depends on the context -- terrain, neighbours, and the strengths and weaknesses of your own civ.
 
Why not a combination of the two? I usually open the tradition tree to get the culture bonus early and then go for the free worker +25% tile improvement from liberty (but also do not steal CS workers), then switch back to get the happiness bonus from tradition and then when I have many cities go for the happiness bonus from cities connected in liberty.

Then you can end up finishing tradition after if you'd like the aquaducts and the great engineers purchase from faith or maybe even go for the honor trait with happiness for garrisons.

My weak point always seems to be keeping happiness up in a wide empire and since I find that wide still is too good because of the overall mfg being so much higher that's what I go for in most games.
 
tommynt wrote a guide some time ago about how to do that. It was written before the trees were changed, but there is a whole discussion of the pros and cons.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378

Thanks, interesting post.

I find it a bit strange that there seems to be so much consensus in here that you should commit to one social policy tree or another. I find it much more suitable for most games to cherry pick, but keeping in mind that I "often" have to be able to finish one for the late game bonusses before ideologies kick in.

Very often happiness seems to be what prevents you from expanding or conquering further, so I find that those policies that gives you happiness are most often what you would need, at least in domination or other wide style plays.
 
I find it a bit strange that there seems to be so much consensus in here that you should commit to one social policy tree or another.
It logically follows from the Tradition finisher being so strong. If you want to get the most out of Tradition, then you want those aqueducts ASAP.

Likewise with Liberty, the free and half-price settler is the gem there. So any delay to that is using that tree less than optimally. The value of the free worker quickly degrades too, so if you don't want it to go to waste, get it ASAP as well. The last two policies in Liberty have more flexibility, but if you plan for the finisher GP to be used as academy, then the clock is ticking there too.
 
It logically follows from the Tradition finisher being so strong. If you want to get the most out of Tradition, then you want those aqueducts ASAP.

Likewise with Liberty, the free and half-price settler is the gem there. So any delay to that is using that tree less than optimally. The value of the free worker quickly degrades too, so if you don't want it to go to waste, get it ASAP as well. The last two policies in Liberty have more flexibility, but if you plan for the finisher GP to be used as academy, then the clock is ticking there too.

Yes I thought so and I find it to be a very valid point for tradition as it is a safe and strong opener, especially if you actually have room for those 4 cities and do not want to go straight into battle. If you handle your tile improvements by stealing workers I probably can't argue against this in many peacemonger cases.

However I do not see the free and half-price settler to be that strong in my setups at least. On Deity and with over standard added ais I do not get more than 1 or 2 cities build myself, so it seems a waste to throw 2 policies at this when I can get happiness from other policies. I'd say the -5% total pop unhappiness + 1 happiness pr. city connected is the gem of the tree.

For the worker it is something I go for ASAP always or not at all (mostly always) - that brings the issue that the free settlers value is early and you cannot go for both that and the worker at the same time.
 
^^That is a fair point about number of cities that you plan to settle!

I agree, the Liberty settler SP is only a lynchpin if you expect 5+ early expos. For a wide conquered empire, I agree that the Liberty happiness one is the gem, and that you do not need it particularly quick. You were clear that was your context, so my apologies for missing that point. I don't infer that to be the situation that OP is asking about.

So, if this is true. How do you recognize that 5-10% of openings where Liberty is the best opener?
It is certainly truthy enough, but maybe the actual number is 15-20%? I am not playing MP, so mistakes are not game killing. I am little bored with Tradition, so my prejudice is for Liberty (since I still cannot make Honor or Piety work). But most games by my first policy I can make a good guess if I have 5 expo spots. I won't have the 5 spots picked out by then, but if I have not run into any neighbors and I have two spots picked already, then I open Liberty.
 
On Deity and with over standard added ais I do not get more than 1 or 2 cities build myself

When discussing strategy on this board, almost all arguments will be made regarding maps with standard/standard settings. If you're playing a different size, speed or number of civs or CS's, the value of everything shifts. What you're doing may work for you on your settings, but since it's not the "standard" way to play, you'll see people advocating a different, more efficient approach.

I would still say that the finisher of both tradition and liberty are too good to delay. You either want free aqueducts or you want a free GP, and you want both of those as quickly as possible. Picking up other policies is fine, as long as you knock out your first tree in AT LEAST 7 policies (I'll always make an exception for the tradition opener because of how good it is at keeping your cities with tiles to work).
 
You don't say what level you are playing at, but I'm guessing it is one of the lower or intermediate levels. At the higher levels, particularly Deity, the pressure from the AI is such that you cannot afford to meander through the Social Policies picking things up here and there. On Deity, the AI starts with two Settlers, a couple of workers, several military units, not to mention several Techs. They are typically seven to nine Techs ahead of you for a hundred turns and more. Wonders disappear like snow in summer. It is common to see Stonehenge, The Great Library and other Wonders built in the first 25-30 turns. If the Celts are in the game, they may get a religious Pantheon on turn 5. Pretty much all the AIs are going to have two cities by turn 5. It is quite possible for them to build their second city four tiles away from your capital on turn 5.

Basically, at this level, experience teaches you whether it is worth trying to found more than three cities -- in some cases, it may be hard to find space for two, never mind three. A combination of factors then tells you what to do. If you are playing a strong war-mongering civ and have relatively weak neighbours close by, you are likely to go Liberty or Honor and try to kill the neighbours as quickly as possible. Instead of founding cities, you capture them. And you let them build the Wonders, which you then capture. Equally, if you find you have a strong war-monger near you, it is probably advisable to go all out building an army, because at around turn 60-70 they will come and try to kill you.

The other important factor is the terrain. Cities demand luxuries. Happiness is a severe limiting factor on higher levels, and you can only expand if there are luxuries that you can improve, and either sell or exchange with the AI civs.

Basically, everything depends on the context -- terrain, neighbours, and the strengths and weaknesses of your own civ.

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your questions. I am playing Level 5 (King), Continents, and Large (10 Player, 20 CS). I used to finish Liberty first, but more recently shifted to Tradition and found a distinct improvement. My more recent experiments with the mixed branches have been a bit lacklustre. Sometimes it works, and sometimes not.

At this level I can reliably and completely dominate the AI's on my continent. The real challenge is when one of the other AI's starts to run away and dominate the other continent. I have found stopping the Diplomatic victory path to be the most difficult. Stopping Science and Culture victories are pretty straightforward. Because, Science leaders are asking to be pre-emptively nuked, and Culture leaders are usually vulnerable to conquest.

There was one runaway game where Persia built the UN on the other continent, and I was Mongolia. I went about slaughtering all of the City States, and that was a lot of fun. But diplomatic victories creep up too quickly. The UN being built is my first warning, and by then it's almost too late to stop it.
 
When discussing strategy on this board, almost all arguments will be made regarding maps with standard/standard settings. If you're playing a different size, speed or number of civs or CS's, the value of everything shifts. What you're doing may work for you on your settings, but since it's not the "standard" way to play, you'll see people advocating a different, more efficient approach.

I would still say that the finisher of both tradition and liberty are too good to delay. You either want free aqueducts or you want a free GP, and you want both of those as quickly as possible. Picking up other policies is fine, as long as you knock out your first tree in AT LEAST 7 policies (I'll always make an exception for the tradition opener because of how good it is at keeping your cities with tiles to work).

I see - and I may very well be wrong here on the standard/standard settings then, but I am still curious as to how people keep up happiness on the higher difficulties by going a full tree and playing a wide play-style.

Also I would argue that the free GP isn't that big of a deal compared to for example 4 aquaducts and engineer purchases from faith or the gold bonus of the full honor tree.
 
Thanks for your reply. In answer to your questions. I am playing Level 5 (King), Continents, and Large (10 Player, 20 CS). I used to finish Liberty first, but more recently shifted to Tradition and found a distinct improvement. My more recent experiments with the mixed branches have been a bit lacklustre. Sometimes it works, and sometimes not.

At this level I can reliably and completely dominate the AI's on my continent. The real challenge is when one of the other AI's starts to run away and dominate the other continent. I have found stopping the Diplomatic victory path to be the most difficult. Stopping Science and Culture victories are pretty straightforward. Because, Science leaders are asking to be pre-emptively nuked, and Culture leaders are usually vulnerable to conquest.

There was one runaway game where Persia built the UN on the other continent, and I was Mongolia. I went about slaughtering all of the City States, and that was a lot of fun. But diplomatic victories creep up too quickly. The UN being built is my first warning, and by then it's almost too late to stop it.

As stated above, most of the advice given here is based on experience of playing on standard settings, so you may need to vary if you play with other settings. You should probably look at a few of the guides posted here, if you have not done so already. This, for example, is a guide to playing wide Liberty by one of the best players on these forums (if you don't believe it, have a look at some of his videos):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=559009

There is also this for Liberty:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503931

And this for Tradition:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=523371

This one deals with Honor:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=529482

If you are going to play on Continents, then it makes sense to play a Civ that has abilities that shine in that environment, such as England. This thread discusses that:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13157687#post13157687
 
I am still curious as to how people keep up happiness on the higher difficulties by going a full tree and playing a wide play-style.
See that first link that mbbcam provides for details, but it is not too hard. One city too many though can really put you over the tipping point! The basic idea is to be quite choosy in your expo location. Happy from Ideology tenets should take care of things from the mid game.

The benefits of “a full tree” follow from the game mechanic that (1) the last policy in any tree gets you two sets of perks, and (2) the finisher for each tree tends to be stronger than most of the SP in the tree.

Also I would argue that the free GP isn't that big of a deal compared to for example 4 aqueducts and engineer purchases from faith...
Yes, that is the conventional wisdom.

...or the gold bonus of the full honor tree.
Well that assumes you are warmongering for most of the game, but okay. Also, the Honor finisher is even less turn sensitive than the one from Liberty (since it gives nothing initially, and pays out over time).
 
I see - and I may very well be wrong here on the standard/standard settings then, but I am still curious as to how people keep up happiness on the higher difficulties by going a full tree and playing a wide play-style.

Also I would argue that the free GP isn't that big of a deal compared to for example 4 aquaducts and engineer purchases from faith or the gold bonus of the full honor tree.

Happiness is actually easier the higher you play on. Civs get starting workers and improve their luxes earlier, so there's more to go around. Like Beetle said, you just need to be smart about city placement. Religion helps wide play immensely as well. Smart city planning means that if you plant near horses on Rivers, you can get 4 "free" happy from that city just from happy gardens and circuses, and happiness from gardens is a tenet that's very reasonable to get.

The free GP isn't "that big of a deal," no, but it does help equalize tradition and liberty in the early game. You just need to come up with a plan for whatever GE's you'll need in the late game. They aren't that difficult to spawn that you couldn't get one or 2 carefully planned ones if you want them. Pre-chemistry, a mine is only 3 hammers anyway, so giving up 1 hammer to spawn a GE down the road is a perfectly viable trade on your more production heavy empire.
 
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