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Libyans storm American consulate and murder Ambassador

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Quackers, Sep 12, 2012.

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  1. utgotye

    utgotye Warlord

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    As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't willing to control those among you who wish to cause others physical harm, others that have no quarrel with you, however vocal and dangerous a minority they may or may not be, who will? Unfortunately, with regard to the US (response), many times it has come down to: you haven't done anything about it so I will. Whether that is right or wrong obviously depends on the circumstances.

    Your dog keeps ****ting in my yard and I keep stepping in it. I ask you over and over to do something about it and you either say you will but don't or completely ignore me. One day you let your dog out but he doesn't come back like usual. Strangely, you haven't seen or heard me complaining to you today either. I wonder why that is? It might have something to do with bear trap your little rat of a dog found his way into on his way to taking his afternoon dump in my yard. The best solution? Perhaps not but way cheaper than building a fence. :crazyeye:
     
  2. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Not necessarily disagreeable speech, but definitely sacrilegious speech if that logic is followed. That would mean we have at least as much hate for Catholics on this forum as a Catholic would have if he/she chose to kill some of our members for what they post. That doesn't make sense to me at all.
     
  3. lovett

    lovett Deity

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    I do not know precisely what you mean by ‘muddying the waters’ here. But I think the most obvious interpretation is that you believe that ‘western imperialism’ has been particularly inimical to democracy and to liberty, especially in the Islamic world. I take your belief to be, at least, that western imperialism has reduced the incidences of democracies and reduced the prevalence of liberty, again, especially in the Islamic world.

    I will focus on the first point because I doubt much substance can be garnered from the second. That is to say, I will focus on the proposition that western interventionism abroad has reduced the incidence of democracies (and, perhaps, their depth). In post#63 I go to some length in explaining why Islam cannot possibly be (generally) antithetical to democracy. I argue that, although there is a lower incidence of democracy amongst Islamic countries then secular countries that is entirely explained by economic explanations. It is explained by the relative poverty, inequality and resource dependence of Islamic countries. This means Islam cannot be antithetical to democracy (in the actual world) simply because there is no shortfall of democracy for Islam to have caused. There is no ‘lack-of-democracy’ for which Islam could be responsible. Positing Islam as a causal influence antithetical to democracy gives us causal over-determination; we have too many causes for a given consequence. The economic explanations completely explain the lack of democracy in the Islamic world; there is no room for religion to do any explanatory work. Consequently, we can say that Islam has not been antithetical to democracy and we have no reason to believe it will become so.

    You may have noticed that this line of argument, if valid, is exactly as damaging to your position as it is to the position that Islam is antithetical to democracy. If the lack of democracy in the Islamic world is fully explained by the economic explanations then, just as there is no room for explanations which appeal for religion there is no room for explanations which appeal to imperialism. There is nothing for imperialism to explain; there is no shortfall of democracy left unexplained but-for imperialism. If you posit that imperialism, or any form of western interventionism, is the cause of a lack of democracy in the Islamic world you are as guilty of causal over-determination as was Quackers. You have too many causes explaining too little. Consequently, we can say the exact same thing about your ‘western imperialism’ explanation of democratic deficit as we can about the ‘Islam-as-anti-democratic’ explanation; western imperialism has not been antithetical to democracy and there we have no reason to believe it will become so.

    I suppose there is one way out of this; you might say that although western imperialism is not directly damaging to democracy it is so indirectly. It is what causes all those other facts which explain the democratic deficit in the Islamic world. But this seems implausible. Certainly, it is not western imperialism which lead a surfeit of oil fields in said countries. The causation flows the other way; it was oil fields which lead (partially) to western interventionism. I think it also implausible that western imperialism is the major cause of the relative poverty and inequality of Islamic countries. Perhaps you can attribute some part of this to western imperialism, if you go back far enough. But not, I think, to the CIA and MI6 backed coups which I imagine feature prominently in your thoughts. At any rate, an explanation of world poverty which focuses on western imperialism rather than geography, resource-dependence, delayed industrialisation and political institutions will be an impoverished one.

    The upshot of this is that we simply can’t say that western imperialism has been antithetical to democracy in the Islamic world, for the exact same reasons we can’t say that Islam has been antithetical to democracy in the Islamic world. That is not to say that there are not cases in which western interventionism has been inimical to democracy, nor is it to say that there has not been cases in which Islam has not been antithetical to democracy. But we can’t make general pronouncements about either. At the least, the anti-democratic aspects of interventionism has been countered by its democratic aspects (to take an appropriate example, the democracy that exists today in Libya).

    More likely, I think, is simply that interventionism simply hasn’t had much anti-democratic affect anywhere. After all, it is not CIA backing that creates anti-democratic forces in a country. These forces exist for reasons largely independent of western influence. The CIA has often aided and abetted such forces, but it is probably relatively rare that such aid makes a democratic country undemocratic; few coups are so finely balanced that a few foreign advisers can change failure into success. And in those situations which are that finely balanced democracy is not secure; countries with such unstable democracies are likely to transition into dictatorship regardless of (negative) western influence. In short, I am sceptical that western interventionism is sufficient to change the fundamental political realities in all but a few countries. If the economic explanations of democracy are as powerful as I am contending, the influence of foreign intelligence services is a minor footnote in the big picture. They may have made some countries undemocratic for some years longer than they would otherwise, but there is no evidence to suggest they have anything like a significant affect.

    If we look further then the Islamic world I am not entirely sure what we will find. But again, the economic explanations hold their power universally. They do not evaporate in South America, for instance. This indicates that the influence of western interventionism will remain relatively minor. Indeed, the studies which have been done specifically on imperialism suggest that it has had slightly beneficial affects worldwide. At the least, there have been studies does on the causal influence of British imperialism on democracy; it has been found that having been part of the British Empire slightly increases the likelihood that one’s country will be a democracy (again, controlling for all factors). This is the only evidence of which I am aware of regarding the influence of imperialism in general. It implies that, if anything, imperialism muddies the waters for dictatorial governments. Again, there is no evidence that western imperialism is or has been generally antithetical to democracy, and evidence that it has not been antithetical to democracy in the Islamic world.
     
  4. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    How do you expect the rational human beings in that part of the world to stand up to such large numbers of religious fanatics? You know that we are talking about the middle east, right? You do realize how many fundamentalist wackjobs live there per capita? I'll give you a hint: it's even worse than Alabama.. or any other southern American state for that matter.

    You are asking for something impossible given the situation and ignoring that rational people live in the region and need to be supported.. That's the only way that part of the world is ever going start making attempts to catch up with the west in terms of secularization, human rights, and equality..

    By isolating rational people in the middle east you give more power to the extremists.
     
  5. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

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    You reap what you sow Obama. If you "killed" Osama then you also killed our own people. Great job on supporting Arab Springs!!
     
  6. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    I guess this is such a big deal since it is so less common under Obama's stewardship than his predecessor's.
     
  7. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    You know something is wrong when a statement condemning "the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims - as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions" is apparently an "apology for America's values". What exactly is Romney implying about American values?
     
  8. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    What gives you the completely absurd impression that I am in any way "defending Islam", particularly in the regard to how a handful continue to overreact in such a way? What utter nonsense.

    I am merely pointing out that a supposedly Christian minister continues to deliberately provoke these incidents to further his own Islamophobic agenda, as was the person who made the video in the first place. That you specifically tried to blame "the religion" of Islam for this reaction to it. If "the religion" was in any way responsible, I think you would have far more than a few hundred or a few thousand demonstrators killing a handful of people.

    That it is even being called "placating the rebels" by the US government merely trying to defuse the situation by making it perfectly clear that the US government is not being deliberately insulting towards a major religions. That doing so is actually in opposition to our core beliefs of religious freedom and equality, even though it is also indeed protected under freedom of speech to do so. Fortunately, we have now moved beyond blasphemy being a crime, much less a serious one. But others haven't yet done so.

    I merely asked you and others in this thread a question that you nor anybody else have answered, and one that Yui108 turned into this even more preposterous response:

    It certainly doesn't require religion to make people act this irrationally.



    But I hesitate to even mention Pol Pot, because it will now likely cause some people to try to claim that communism or socialism was to blame.
     
  9. ArneHD

    ArneHD Just a little bit mad

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  10. r16

    r16 not deity

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    haven't read the full thread , not even went around certain sites that deal with such stuff , but let me add here that 10 Libyans defending the consulate -according to news in Turkey- were also killed and the American response team coming in from Trablus was mortared . This is all pre-planned -to match 9/11 11 years on- and that masses can not dare stand aside while more radical elements start protests in the name of defending Islam is just basic preparation , not the cause itself . All one can say for the moment on mostly empty US Embassies .
     
  11. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Blackpilled Idealist

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    The difference between religion and ideology is often merely superficial.
     
  12. JohnRM

    JohnRM Don't make me destroy you

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    Some people have criticized our President over this incident. Either our response was wrong or we were wrong for supporting the Arab Spring.

    There was a point before NATO intervention when Ghaddafi's Army was headed toward Benghazi to essentially wipe out the entire population. The President asked for options from his Sr Advisors. The French and British wanted to do something, but they wanted the US to take the lead. The President's advisors were telling him that he could either do nothing or institute a no-fly zone. But, the Libyans weren't flying to Benghazi. It was advice that was political, not practical. The President knew that these people were about to be exterminated, literally exterminated. He went to some of the lower-tier people in his administration and asked them what could be done to stop this and they got a plan together to intervene and prevent the mass murder of tens of thousands of people.

    Now, we have a few hundred people assaulting a consulate building. They killed four Americans.

    Does somebody want to explain to me how that makes our decision wrong to prevent a mass murder? Whether or not a few hundred people are grateful, whether or not the people of Benghazi are grateful, whether or not the Libyan people are grateful, and whether or not the entire Muslim world is grateful or not, we did the right thing. We did the American thing. Sometimes doing the right thing isn't always something you get credit for.

    ...and...

    Is there anything that Mitt Romney won't do to win an election? What a ________ __________!
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    The point is that one can no more blame Islam for this than one can blame Christianity for the Islamophobia and bigotry of Terry Jones, communism for the mass murders committed by Pol Pot, capitalism for Bhopal and the recent tragedy in Pakistan, or democracy and freedom for the overthrow of numerous sovereign governments by the US government.
     
  14. jtb1127

    jtb1127 Deity

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    What's utter nonsense is that when I say something bad about Islam you ask me to say something bad about Christianity. I'm not a Christian so I don't care. It's religious belief I'm after. If I were to make a thread right now called "terrorists are bad" you'd probably respond by saying "yeah, so are imperialists". Why you feel the need to argue with anything that a conservative might say is beyond me.

    Who cares what the Christian minister says. If he weren't Christian he probably wouldn't be so ignorant and if they weren't muslims they wouldn't act like barbarians when they watch the stupidest video on youtube. But I'm going to have to say that storming embassies and killing ambassadors is a little worse than trolling on Islam. The video doesn't hurt anyone except overly sensitive feelings. The mobs do. People in the secular world have accepted that people will make fun of religion. 80% of Egyptians think the death penalty is acceptable for apostasy.


    To the pol pot thing:the Khmer rouge didn't take place because of a youtube video.
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yeah, but you were talking about the point of time where Arab League and the UN decided to intervene in Bengazi. None of your reasoning applies here; Libya was well past the point were a peaceful transition to democracy was possible. The rebels were determined to take out Ghaddafi or die trying, because they knew if they lost he would've taken the opportunity to reaffirm control even beyond what he had previously, and get revenge on the rebels and their sympathisers (which was the educated part of the population you were talking about). This would have undoubtedly crushed the hopes of ever getting any democratization going during Ghaddafi's lifetime.

    But I don't think I agree with your general point here either. The social and economic developments you mention only foster the desire for democracy among the population, not the ability to actually make it happen (within the system). And I don't think that simply waiting for your current dictator to die is actually a useful course of action to bring about democracy - not every country has the luck of Spain where the successor simply announces to allow democracy from now on. Ghaddafi had many sons, and his tribe was entrenched to power and very much had the desire to keep it that way. Of course nobody can say what would've happened if he died naturally, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. The largest challenge to the regime would've probably been tribal infighting, but I don't think that is entirely preferable to what actually happened last year.

    Also, I agree with you that there were forces at work to push peaceful protest to violent rebellion. But I don't think you have to look abroad to find those. Seriously, considering how utterly surprised and desoriented the West reacted to the Arab Spring makes it hard for me to even consider that, not to mention that the Ghaddafi regime had plenty of reasons to cause that on its own.

    Of course. I didn't want to give a comprehensive set of reasons. Actually I just wanted to annoy Patroklos a little.

    I don't get your point. What did it cost in your opinion? And comparing one wise course of action that costs nothing to an unwise course of action that costs nothing isn't a very convincing argument.

    Yeah, but placating the radicals was not the point, but placating the undecided / vaguely hostile majority. And as far as I can tell, the statement was released publicly and was therefore intended for everyone.

    And they were not providing an excuse. It is ridiculous to think that anyone would even think of violent murder as excusable. They were condemning the attack. They were criticizing what caused the attack. This criticism doesn't imply the attack was justified. A video can be offensive without giving you the right to kill people. Which is exactly what was said.

    Of course they are. I don't know what strawman you are attacking here.

    But their actions depend on what they believe. If the US government had defended the right to produce offensive videos, it would've been perceived as endorsing the video (even though it really isn't yadda yadda). Providing plenty of fertile ground for the Great Devil narrative. Sure, everyone who acts on that would still be responsible for it, and doing it for wrong reasons, but what does it help the victims if the perpetrator was wrong?

    You should join Quackers in his tirade against political correctness. You're just blowing off steam because of something that annoys you; this has nothing to do with foreign politics. If you prefer the government not to do things that annoys over prudent foreign policy, go ahead.
     
  16. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    You directly blamed "religion", specifically Islam, for this which I think is patently absurd. It has nothing to do with saying "something bad about Christianity", much less that you apparently consider yourself to be a "conservative". That should be perfectly clear to anybody based on the statements I have made directly above.

    Did you even bother to read my last post before responding?
     
  17. imperialman

    imperialman Admiral

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  18. NedimNapoleon

    NedimNapoleon Weird Little Human

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    Well the mob went wild because of cultural differences, rather than the video itself, anyone who has spent at least 1 day on the internet would know its trolling, lets move on. I saw a part of the video and I was meh, same old, while a small fringe group of fundies may get really really pissed and since it was informed via the TV not directly on youtube it may have been blown out of proportion. Thus these key factors led to the incident. If the real problem is in a whole religion wouldn't you expect the same thing happening in every country with a sizable muslim community? You have to realize that Libya and most of North Africa is extremely destabilized because of recent political events and law and order is an issue. In any stable democratic country with a muslim population this wouldn't nor has it happened.
     
  19. DinoDoc

    DinoDoc Deity

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    Why aren't we invading Syria right now? Can you explain to me how installing democracies in places without a functioning civil society is a recipe for anything other than failure?
     
  20. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    Edit: Sorry mixed up Syria with Libya.

    Because there's a complex mix of geopolitical parties involved.
     
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