Lichdom: some questions

[Fenboy]

"Our use of death mana offends the delicate sensibilities of our good and neutral allies, but they aren't the ones facing down the combined wrath of the Doviello, the Clan of Embers and the Infernal. Are liches evil? Yes, but they are a necessary evil."

 

[Ribusprissin]

Lichdom is, what, ripping out your soul so that your body doesn't die? Against the natural order, and definitely against most people's sensibilities, but it doesn't really seem that evil.

 

[Emptiness]

Usually there's consorting with demons, human sacrifice, and liberal application of various malicious magics involved in becoming a Lich. Also, the process is most attractive to those who would be damned were they to allow themselves to die and be judged - so it becomes a way to subvert divine will (in that the god(s) intend death and judgment to occur and you avoid/delay that intent) and thus evil. I don't know how much if any of that matches up with FfH lore, however.

 

[Guale]

In the Forgotten Realms setting there are Baelnorn which are good elves who become liches to protect their family tombs or some such crap. Just showing that not all liches in fiction are evil, horrid things.

 

[odalrick]

Usually there's consorting with demons, human sacrifice, and liberal application of various malicious magics involved in becoming a Lich.

The thing that gets me is that this quote pretty much describes becoming a high priest of Order as well.

Not to mention warmongering and torture.

 

[Milaga]

Lastly, being undead gives you a significant weakness to holy damage. So using liches in direct combat against mercurians isn't a good idea. And anyone running Order can bless their troops for a nasty sting against you. Also, Crown of Brilliance, already horribly powerful, is a Holy damage spell. It tears undead to pieces.On the subject of spells actually, there's also Destroy undead, whichyou become vulnerable to. Much more acessible, it can be used to attack you even while hidden deep within a stack.

In the last game I played a heavy Archmage/Lich combo my world conquoring ground to a halt when I hit the Basium lands. Wraiths are at a huge disadvantage against angels who both have holy damage and are immune to their death damage. This is where I learned the value of a Death3 Earth3 Lich. Using metamagic I switched all my death nodes to earth and I finally had some tough summoning power. The stoneskin spell is nice too. After the heavy work is done the liches can swoop in and do some of the killing themselves for more xp.

 

[Emptiness]

In the Forgotten Realms setting there are Baelnorn which are good elves who become liches to protect their family tombs or some such crap. Just showing that not all liches in fiction are evil, horrid things.

The thing that gets me is that this quote pretty much describes becoming a high priest of Order as well.

I don't mean to argue in favor of limiting access to liches in FfH2. I think anyone should be able to use them, if they are so inclined. I was just pointing out why liches are generally associated with evil.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In FfH, there is actually a pretty good thematic argument for not allowing any Good Archmages. While good mages can have more than enough talent and training, what makes an archmage is the strength of will to carry through in all his goals despite any obstacles, especially ethical qualms. True Neutral alignment often facilitates this strength of will best, but evil works fine too.


Becoming a High Priets of the Order most certainly does not involve consorting with demons. Human sacrifice would only count if executing (suspected) criminals counts. I also tend to think Junil and the Order look down upon mortals using (arcane) magic (most of the gods did not want Man to learn he could channel magic personally instead of praying for an angel to do it, so arcane magic in general could be considered to be against divine will), although if the answers to prayers count then I suppose you could say malicious magic was used.

 

[Lone Wolf]

In FfH, there is actually a pretty good thematic argument for not allowing any Good Archmages. While good mages can have more than enough talent and training, what makes an archmage is the strength of will to carry through in all his goals despite any obstacles, especially ethical qualms.

Well, it's not like every FfH Goodie should be completely ethically good, so I don't see a problem with a Good Archmage.

 

[odalrick]

Becoming a High Priets of the Order most certainly does not involve consorting with demons.

Angels then. Which is basically just demons with a good PR department.

Human sacrifice would only count if executing (suspected) criminals counts.

It certainly does. (Even if it isn't a crime not to volunteer for human sacrifice.) As does burning heretics, killing enemies in wars and even sacrificing your own troops for tactical advantage.

Same thing as with the demon-angel thing. Rebranded with a good PR-department.

I also tend to think Junil and the Order look down upon mortals using (arcane) magic (most of the gods did not want Man to learn he could channel magic personally instead of praying for an angel to do it, so arcane magic in general could be considered to be against divine will)

Yes, I agree. Gods are selfish gits.

, although if the answers to prayers count then I suppose you could say malicious magic was used.

For sheer horror and "evil" value, Unyielding Order is the worst spell in the game. Humans reduced to mere cogs in a machine. At least Feast only kills one pop once, Unyielding Order kills the entire city, all the time.

Also, Ashen Veil is open about the price and provide actual value in return.

Plus, if someone wants to kill you, all you have to do is kill them back and no one will think any less of you. If an Order official wants you dead the entire society will turn against you.

Speaking of which, when judges start handing out sentences like "exile", id est "throw her off a cliff" for minor infractions it's time to emigrate. Before you yourself is sentenced to "two weeks in the comfy chair"*.

*The chair is indeed comfortable, only no one thought it worth mentioning that you aren't given any food or drink while in the chair, nor are you allowed to leave the chair to get it for yourself.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Oddly, given the resistance to unholy damage, and the fact that most spells which damage you are in good spheres/religions, it seems that liches are actually better off being made by good nations, rather than evil ones.

Such are the side effects of the design concepts of dividing the civs between Good and Evil and giving them some thematic stuff, but allowing nearly complete freedom of action.

As to the Order - that depends on the civ, I guess. Even if the Elohim adopted Order they'd be much more soft about it then the Bannor or one of the Evil nations converted to it.

Another aligment point - Flesh Golems seem a lot more sinister thing to me, but they are allowed to Goodies, too (and definitely shouldn't be allowed in a hypothetical modmod that makes things more thematic with lore). Crafting a unit to a Flesh Golem is commiting mass murder of your troops and sewing the corpses into a Golem. That is definitely a more sinister thing to do then being an Archmage!

 

[zup]

I agree with odalrick. Order is evil! But then again, I am person who wants absolute freedom. For myself, of course.

And though it maybe against divine will to use arcane magic, especially to cheat death, why should it be 'evil' to disobey? Or put it another way, why would it make you a 'good' person if you did as a god wanted you to, even if it was a 'good' god.

 

[Milaga]

Before you yourself is sentenced to "two weeks in the comfy chair"*.

Our weapon is surprise!

... and fear.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I don't understand you people.
There is no good, neutral and evil in FfH.

There are only the ones that are honest and the ones that will lie to you.
But in the end, they all want the same thing. Your service in death and life.
And the methods they use to aquire it are earely similar...

 

[Calavente]

well, do I have to remember you that good and evil in FFH have nothing to do with morality?
they are only defined as following :
evil is consorting with demons (who want to kill all life on erebus)
good is abhoring demons (that you do it with mana, angels or cold steal is not important)

that's the extent of the manicheism in FFH2.
lichdom has nothing to do with morality thus is not "un-good".

an evil civ, apte to consort with demons (CoE or svartalfars) may be in reality very very good by our XXI century western european morality.

IMO, neutral are those we may consider as the more "good" in a XXIc perspective : more than FFH good or FFH evil, they have interest in its own people and maybe give more freedom.

 

[Emptiness]

Or put it another way, why would it make you a 'good' person if you did as a god wanted you to, even if it was a 'good' god.

The implication is that the authority to determine who is 'good' and who is 'evil' rests in the hands of the gods, and it is they who define a 'good' person as one who does what the 'good' gods want.

 

[Lone Wolf]

well, do I have to remember you that good and evil in FFH have nothing to do with morality?

Theoretically, yes. Practically, most "Evil" leaders tend to be evil according to XXI-century morality also. Good leaders seem to be mostly decent (althrough Bannor in general isn't what I would call good, Sabathiel and Capria seem to have OK personalities).

good is abhoring demons (that you do it with mana, angels or cold steal is not important)

Well, you can use Death Mana and still be Good in FfH.

 

[Calavente]

Theoretically, yes. Practically, most "Evil" leaders tend to be evil according to XXI-century morality also. Good leaders seem to be mostly decent (althrough Bannor in general isn't what I would call good, Sabathiel and Capria seem to have OK personalities).
Well, you can use Death Mana and still be Good in FfH.

I agree with you... mostly.
death mana has nothing to do with good or evil in ffh. it is frowned upon by "good". as is declaring war on your neighbor, or having culture conflicts on your border.

I agree that most good leaders seems decent and most evil leaders seems "bad".
but some evil leaders are decent if you compare them to their race. and some good leaders are bad... especially bannor's.
overall, liking scentient life is more likely to be something that would oppose you to demons. so some decent leaders are in good civs. But you don't need to be decent to fight demons. Same as you may want to consort with demons or may no want to decide between agares and junil so as to protect & love your people.

But ok, shaim and doviello are moslty bad guys. balseraphs are not bad guys, they are crasy ...
calabim ? maybe they are decent leaders... how would I know... maybe vampire only prey on delinquents...

 

[Lone Wolf]

death mana has nothing to do with good or evil in ffh. it is frowned upon by "good".

That's a contradiction.

calabim ? maybe they are decent leaders... how would I know... maybe vampire only prey on delinquents...

They don't. Read Flauros' civilopedia entry. And the Pillar of Chains' one, too.

But ok, shaim and doviello are moslty bad guys.

Mahala of the Doviello is one of the few "Evil" leaders who are not completely evil by the contemporary standarts.

and some good leaders are bad... especially bannor's.

Actually, Sabathiel and Capria themselves are quite decent. The Bannor Order hiearchy, however, is morally questionable.

 

[Valkrionn]

Mahala of the Doviello is one of the few "Evil" leaders who are not completely evil by the contemporary standarts.

That right there is why I made her just BARELY neutral... Using Broader Alignments in FF, just adopting slavery or razing a city will push her over. I just don't think she's necessarily evil, more just trying to do what's best for her pack.