Life Thread I: No God => Life is Good.

[Timsup2nothin]

Isnt it obvious that when your brain dies you cease to exist?

Well...no. I have not the first clue what is going to happen when my brain dies. No personal experience. No one who's brain has died has even given me an account of the results. While I have accused some people of being brain dead, they really weren't so I didn't ask them.

 

[Borachio]

I think it's quite reasonable to suppose that death of the brain is the end of the consciousness that depends on it.

I don't see how a disembodied consciousness could possibly exist. It would entail a dualistic model of reality - mind separate, and made of different stuff, from matter - that I've never been able to envisage that coherently. Nor have I found any convincing attempt to do so. Now that I come to think of it, no attempt at all.

I could of course be horribly wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, by any means.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think it's quite reasonable to suppose that death of the brain is the end of the consciousness that depends on it.

I don't see how a disembodied consciousness could possibly exist.

Given that I don't really grasp how an embodied consciousness exists I certainly don't either.

 

[Borachio]

That's certainly a point. Yet the evidence all points to an embodied consciousness existing.

Which can't be said for a disembodied one. There's scant evidence for that. If any.

 

[bhavv]

So you are the brain? And the only way to really get to know yourself is to open your skull?

You are an organic mortal being whose bodily functions and thought processes are controlled by your brain and spinal cord.

When those stop working, so do you. Its pretty simple knowledge really.

 

[bhavv]

Well...no. I have not the first clue what is going to happen when my brain dies. No personal experience. No one who's brain has died has even given me an account of the results. While I have accused some people of being brain dead, they really weren't so I didn't ask them.

By 'brain dead', I am referring to actual physical death of the brain, which is medically determined by brain stem death.

One of the methods they use to test for that is the caloric reflux test, which I've had the displeasure of having to undergo due to an ear disease, and from my terrifying memories of the test, I'm very certain that a person that doesnt respond to it at all is completely dead. Its just impossible for your head and even body not to totally spaz out if the brain is still wrking, its horrid. In the case of some hearing diseases, they test each ear and monitor the reflux action in your eye movements, its a horrid horrid experience for anyone still alive to have to go through, which is probably why they didnt test me that way for many years until I specifically asked for it.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I think it's quite reasonable to suppose that death of the brain is the end of the consciousness that depends on it.

I don't see how a disembodied consciousness could possibly exist. It would entail a dualistic model of reality - mind separate, and made of different stuff, from matter - that I've never been able to envisage coherently. Nor have I found any convincing attempt to do so. Now that I come to think of it, no attempt at all.

The problem lies in the way we identify reality. If at the beginning is an eternal and infinite multiverse it is a multiverse of unlimited consciousness (not human consciousness of course). Matter is than product of this consciousness reverted into its opposite unconscious form and during so-called evolution we are getting the original consciousness-quality back in progressively greater degree. Man isnt clearly the last step in evolution. The force which is matter is just reverted consciousness otherwise there is no way matter could produce something beyond itself - the capacity for consciousness is already involved in matter.

 

[Borachio]

You are an organic mortal being whose bodily functions and thought processes are controlled by your brain and spinal cord.

When those stop working, so do you. Its pretty simple knowledge really. It's a working hypothesis.

Better, I think.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's certainly a point. Yet the evidence all points to an embodied consciousness existing.

Which can't be said for a disembodied one. There's scant evidence for that. If any.

I have no question that consciousness exists. I just don't think it is well enough understood to be sure that it is embodied. Its state appears to coincide with a physical body when using the observation tools available to a physical body. Which makes it a self referent system...as long as you are using a physical body to examine it it appears to be confined to a physical body.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

You are an organic mortal being whose bodily functions and thought processes are controlled by your brain and spinal cord.

When those stop working, so do you. Its pretty simple knowledge really.

I know, but you if you study spiritual knowledge of mankind you will see that we are much more then just that...

 

[bhavv]

Better, I think.

I think its pretty much a fact actually that when the brain is dead, so are you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stem_death

Or how exactly would your contentiousness and thought processes carry on working after your brain is no longer functional and has ceased to send brain impulses?

 

[Borachio]

I have no question that consciousness exists. I just don't think it is well enough understood to be sure that it is embodied. Its state appears to coincide with a physical body when using the observation tools available to a physical body. Which makes it a self referent system...as long as you are using a physical body to examine it it appears to be confined to a physical body.

OK. I could go with that. As far as it goes.

So, you think it's possible for the mind and body to be composed of different "stuff"?

How might the two interact? How might a non-material mind have an effect on a material body, and vice versa? Because, try as I might, I've never been able to see how.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I know, but you if you study spiritual knowledge of mankind you will see that we are much more then just that...

Maybe. Or maybe we aren't. Maybe you are, and maybe everyone is. No way to know.

 

[bhavv]

I know, but you if you study spiritual knowledge of mankind you will see that we are much more then just that...

There is no knowledge behind spirituality, it cant even form a hypothesis because none of its claims about life after death can be tested.

Just because people believe in things, doesnt make them real.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

OK. I could go with that. As far as it goes.

So, you think it's possible for the mind and body to be composed of different "stuff"?

How might the two interact? How might a non-material mind have an effect on a material body, and vice versa? Because, try as I might, I've never been able to see how.

Question: are you defining consciousness as 'mind'?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Maybe. Or maybe we aren't. Maybe you are, and maybe everyone is. No way to know.

There are quite a few ways to know. Non of them is particulary easy or fast ...

 

[Borachio]

Yes. What else might it be? Mind, consciousness, spirit and psyche are just different words for the same thing, I think. I've never seen any difference among the words.

 

[bhavv]

And why do people assume that conciousness = mind?

Why do people assume that NDEs = heaven / afterlife?

Both ideas are coincidental ideas at best, with neither being real proof of what they claim.

 

[bhavv]

Yes. What else might it be? Mind and consciousness are just different words for the same thing, I think.

Consciousness would more than likely be the natural functioning of the physical brain.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There are quite a few ways to know. Non of them is particulary easy or fast ...

None of them are particularly easy or fast...and to the best of my knowledge none of them have told me anything about you. Have you found one that tells you something about me?