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Likely French Presidential Runoff Poll

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by mazzz, Apr 22, 2007.

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Who would you vote for?

  1. Nicolas Sarkozy

    37 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Ségolène Royal

    29 vote(s)
    39.2%
  3. Abstain

    8 vote(s)
    10.8%
  1. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    It was an incredibly daft idea to call it a "constitution" in the first place...:crazyeye:
    Ah well, on to something new I hope.
     
  2. Ball Lightning

    Ball Lightning www.sporedum.net

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  3. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    No one is talking about asking the French The Same question, every one is talking about a smaller "constitution", and in that case, I don't really see how is asking again the people less respectful than just ignoring their opinion ;)
     
  4. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    The thing you haven't understood is that Sarkozy doesn't talk anymore about any constitution, neither small nor big. He only talks about a treaty, similar to the Treaty of Amsterdam or the Treaty of Nice. Have you felt cheated because neither Chirac nor Jospin asked you personally the question if you agreed in the treaty of Nice ?

    A new constitution has to be written from scratch, the old one is dead. And the only way to write dispassionately a new text is to get rid firstly of the locking of the EU which is the current situation since the Treaty of Nice.

    Asking a second time in a referendum the same question to the French people about a "smaller constitution" is short-sighted. Europe deserves a better constitution than simply small bits of a text which has been rejected in France and in the Netherlands. We should not mix up the short term need for Europe to be unblocked and the long term need consisting in giving a constitution to Europe.

    And I'm sorry but I insist, this specific issue proves that Nicolas Sarkozy has by far a better vision for France and for Europe than Royal or Bayrou. We don't elect a shortsighted administrative considering citizens as share owners, we elect a President who should have a bit more deeply thought about his positions.
     
  5. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    But then again, Plato's Socrates may differ from the real one. ;)

    Why would they answer the same ? AFAIK, people have died, others got the right to vote in the meantime, some may have changed their mind... It wouldn't be insulting. Dumb maybe...

    Passing through the parliament is wrong, even more so, now that the referendum is done. It is wrong. I don't care of Fabius.

    I may be mistaken, but Bayrou's idea was to let down much of the text too, except he wanted a referendum. Do you have an agenda ?
     
  6. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Yes, I have an agenda. I want Europe to move forward. And I repeat, cutting out 90% of the text and still calling it the European constitution needing a referendum is shortsighted. As I've told you, we must not mix up a short term priority being to unblock Europe and a long term priority being to establish a constitution to Europe.

    Hence, if a treaty similar to Nice or Amsterdam can unblock Europe in the short term, then I hardly see why it needs a referendum. A new referendum has to be kept only for a brand new real constitution that has to be fully rewritten, but for this, we need time. And to have time, we need a new frame making the EU able to work with 27 members, something which is currently not the case.

    The big difference is that Bayrou still call that small shortsighted treaty a "constitution", and Sarkozy, and I agree, considers it as a "Nice Treaty bis" giving to Europeans the free movement necessary to rewrite sereinously a real constitution.
     
  7. MamboJoel

    MamboJoel Cool.

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    Hum... Btw if we're going to be in the process of writing a real consitution I suggest they focus only on the institutions and avoid getting into articles that focus on political subjects that are still in debate in a lot of countries (liberalism, socialism etc...). At the end of the day a consitution is about insitutions mainly...
     
  8. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    Marla, that is just "rethoric". Calling the short version a new constitution or a treaty is just a matter of communication. Sarkozy is the one that wants to bypass the people by not asking them. And I am sure as hell that one of the reasons French people rejectes the Euro constitution is that they haven't been asked about the EU for a very long time (Nice, the new members, etc), they therefore felt cheated and wanted the government to know it.
     
  9. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    You both mix up two priorities :
    - there's a short term priority being to unblock Europe.
    - there's a long term priority being to establish a constitution for Europe.

    This is not about rhetoric, like it or not. This is the things as they are. Mixing up the two would be a Historical major mistake.

    A second referendum on the same text with the same name will lead to the same answer. And after then, what's your strategy ? Ask yourself, honnestly, what is the way to respect the best the 55% of French voters who said "no" ? Is it to ask them to answer again, pretending we haven't heard well the first answer, or is it to restart everything from scratch ?

    Give me honnestly an answer and stop for once to be hypocritical about the subject.
     
  10. Steph

    Steph Multi Many Tasks man Retired Moderator

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    As shown with the previous referendum, I don't think the people has the skill / will / time to read and evaluate the details of a long constitution anyway.

    So I personally think we should have made a small documents, with the principles of a new EU, and have a referendum on that, and then let the parliament work on the details of the constitution.

    First, making laws and writing detailed articles is their job. Second, it's how a representative democracy should work.

    I don't know if such an approach is still possible.
     
  11. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    Marla, no candidate is talking about asking the same the question about the same text, none !!! I don't know why you are saying that.
     
  12. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Frankly, who will care about the content being the same or only half of the first version ? The "no" side will have the same leaders, using the same arguments and making understand that what we ask them is to make them say "yes" to something where they have already said "no".

    During the first campaign, the "no" supporters have never expressed a single word on anything having an institutional value in the text. They have made all the campaign on the 3rd part which was nothing else than a summary encompassing all the former treaties. The reason for this is simple. Citizens care mainly about policies, very few about the mean to vote new policies.

    As such, believing that a referendum only on the 1st part of the constitution will focus more on the institutional debate is nothing but a wet dream. The "no" supporters will use the same argument, and this in being strengthened by their first victory, and it can only lead to the exact same result.

    The only way to see a different result is to restart a real constitution from scratch. This is the only attitude which is really respectful to people who rejected the former constitution. And outside this mere concern of efficiency, the only honouring exit for the EU regarding History is to rewrite fully a real text as its first constitution, not only to take bits of a rejected text.

    Hence, we take the bits of the text that can unblock Europe in the short term, this having no constitutional value whatsoever, and only then we can start again the process to write a real constitution.
     
  13. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Here is a map of the 1st round results at the municipalities level in metropolitan France.
    - Municipalities where Sarkozy was ahead of Royal are in blue
    - Municipalities where Royal was ahead of Sarkozy are in pink.

     
  14. Steph

    Steph Multi Many Tasks man Retired Moderator

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    There isn't much pink in Haute Savoie
     
  15. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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  16. Serutan

    Serutan Eatibus Anythingibus

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    Marla, is there an economic correlation in the map you showed? That is, are the pink areas less well off than the blue areas?
     
  17. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    My first analysis is that Royal's "territory" encompasses much of our technological "sun belt" (great urban areas of the south and the Atlantic coast).

    I'm all for rewriting a Constitution from scratch, a text whose sole purpose is to establish how the EU will work. A Constitution ! Not the crap that we were given last time... :rolleyes: And yes, Sarkozy is wrong. Let the EU stall a bit, and hurry a new text ! The referendum happened 2 years ago already, what are we waiting for ?
     
  18. Babbler

    Babbler Deity

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    Some easier but more inaccurate map:

     
  19. Steph

    Steph Multi Many Tasks man Retired Moderator

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    Did you notice there are 26 other countries in the EU?
     
  20. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Deity

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    What are they waiting for ?
     

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