Litvinenko 'probably murdered on personal orders of Putin

[Daw]

Daw, that game's called "telephone" here.

Oh, okay. So, Russian management seems to be a huge "telephone" then. In fact, looking back into the history, there hardly was a time when it was not.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Oh, okay. So, Russian management seems to be a huge "telephone" then. In fact, looking back into the history, there hardly was a time when it was not.

STALIN is only second most popular leader of all time in Russia ?
(Maybe Russia has been drinking too much of the Drink Iam not allowed to mention because that is considered racist and offensive)

Russians are crazy.

Russians have voted for their most popular ever leader - and the former Soviet ruler Leonid Brezhnev topped the poll.

He beat tyrant Joseph Stalin and the country’s last tsar, Nicholas II, to claim top prize.

The poll also demonstrated that Russians prefer strong leader to ones seen as weaker.
An expert said: 'There is a definite trend towards favouring harsh, authoritarian leaders over those who gave the people more freedom.'

 

[Daw]

STALIN is only second most popular leader of all time in Russia ?
(Maybe Russia has been drinking too much of the Drink Iam not allowed to mention because that is considered racist and offensive)

Russians are crazy.

This poll missed me, but I would have voted for Peter I. Though he was apparently even worse than Stalin when it was about freedoms (OTOH most freedoms were largely inaccessible luxuries anywhere in the world at the time). But as a leader he managed to pull the country about a century forward in some coupe of decades or what? Also, he was the first to introduce social mobility to the country. And he was open-minded enough to practically adopt a kid of African origin, which was unbelievably progressive for the time. And he was progressive enough to be openly secular (well, at least he allegedly ordered to cast cannons using metal of churches' bells) - not every present ruler will dare to do that.

As to your favorite drink, I can't stomach it. Literally. When it comes to strong drinks, I will choose blended malt whiskey or brandy.

But most of the time I'm perfectly sober because I love driving. Must be just crazy, sure.

 

[Bootstoots]

It rather seems to be questionable.

Question one: What makes you think Russia is a dictatorship?

I don't feel like I live in a dictatorship, really. It is more like something else, like... I don't know if you have this game, but we played it a lot in my childhood when we had no computers, consoles or tablets: you and your mates (the more the better) sit in a circle, and the first one whispers a phrase into his neighbor's ear. The neighbor then has to rephrase it as much as possible while trying to keep the initial meaning as little distorted as he can, and whisper this new version to his next neighbor, and so on. When the phrase goes the full circle, the initial player says the original and the last player says what reached him, and everybody laughs because usually the final version is twisted beyond recognition.

The same thing seems to happen when the ideas of the government go through their communication lines to those who are to implement them, so what's being implemented is totally different from what they were supposed to do. And then even that is implemented poorly.

Like in Chelyabinsk recently there was a scandal when road workers were laying asphalt at subzero temperatures right into the snow. When asked, "What the hell do you think you're doing?!" They answered that they "were told to repair the road." The fact that they were told to do it in September and were supposed to finish by October, and now the best they can do is to wait till it's at least mid-April did not bother them a bit.

It does not look like it's a dictatorship at all. It's honestly more like a total anarchic mess at times, really.

Question two: I tried to figure out who the "prominent Russian dissidents" might be, and realized I really don't know any. Even a single one. Care to give a few names, please? I am almost certain I will recognize them and then will be able to explain why I don't think they are either prominent or dissidents.

With Nemtsov, I hope I made myself clear: he had neither any power, nor any chance of getting it in any foreseeable future. But he did have a track record of ranting a lot about "the regime" and stuff. So, actually, if I was Putin, I would have assigned guards to protect him, really, because keeping him alive was no threat at all, while getting him dead was certain to create rumors and allegations exactly as much as it did.

Same thing with Litvinenko, as Red_Elk has pointed out.

While I didn't directly call Russia a dictatorship, I'm kind of on the fence as to whether it should count as one or not. From what I've read it seems more authoritarian than democratic. It's not a clear-cut dictatorship like North Korea or Uzbekistan or somewhere like that. I'll leave it to others to point out the details, I don't know them as well as some others do.

Dictatorships often don't run their internal affairs competently and do tend to have huge bureaucracies that miscommunicate things like in 'Telephone', but internal dysfunction, incompetence, and corruption are common just about everywhere in any form of government.

The list FriendlyFire gave is this; I would strike out Berezovsky and add Nemtsov:

Alexander Litvinenko - 2006
Anna Politkovskaya - 2006
Sergei Magnitsky- 2009
Natalia Estemirova - 2009
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova - 2009
Paul Klebnikov - 2004
Boris Berezovsky - 2013

The prominence of any given person is debatable, but what I mean is that people who are prominent within the Russian opposition have a strong tendency to be killed under suspicious circumstances. By that I would include leaders of minor opposition parties that are strongly critical of the government, as well as leaders of protest movements and the like. In addition to murders, the pattern of repression includes prosecutions that are ostensibly for corruption but are clearly politically motivated; Alexei Navalny's case is a good example in that category.

I'm not sure why opposition figures who pose no real threat to Putin tend to be killed. I too would think that it would make more sense to leave them alive, but authoritarian regimes are often paranoid and do go after opponents who pose little threat.

 

[FriendlyFire]

This poll missed me, but I would have voted for Peter I. Though he was apparently even worse than Stalin when it was about freedoms (OTOH most freedoms were largely inaccessible luxuries anywhere in the world at the time). But as a leader he managed to pull the country about a century forward in some coupe of decades or what? Also, he was the first to introduce social mobility to the country. And he was open-minded enough to practically adopt a kid of African origin, which was unbelievably progressive for the time. And he was progressive enough to be openly secular (well, at least he allegedly ordered to cast cannons using metal of churches' bells) - not every present ruler will dare to do that.

As to your favorite drink, I can't stomach it. Literally. When it comes to strong drinks, I will choose blended malt whiskey or brandy.

But most of the time I'm perfectly sober because I love driving. Must be just crazy, sure.

I refering to the growing popularity of Stalin
The kind crazy Russian mentality, that finds it acceptable for mass death and mass suffering as justified by the results.

Why not vote for Catherine the Great ?
Was it because she was German (is joke, Rurik Dynasty was Norwegian, and of Aryan :hides: )

Proportion of Russians who respect Stalin is growing, poll suggests
Survey finds near-doubling in last two and a half years of those who think leader's repressions were justified

The Levada Centre, Russia’s most respected polling agency, found the proportion of respondents ready to excuse the Soviet leader’s brutality had almost doubled in less than two and a half years.

“This testifies less to attitudes towards Stalin than to mutual relations between the individual and the state,” he told Interfax. “Stalin is perceived as the symbol of a strong and powerful state and the fact that Stalin and all his politics were inhuman is a secondary concern for people.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-respect-Stalin-is-growing-poll-suggests.html

 

[red_elk]

The list FriendlyFire gave is this; I would strike out Berezovsky and add Nemtsov.

From all these people, the only person who can be considered as a prominent opposition figure is Nemtsov (added by you). All others are either journalists or lawyers, not politicians. May be Politkovskaya can be considered as opposition figure too, she was quite well known as a journalist.

And part of them weren't even governmental critics. Markelov was a lawyer, murdered by Russian nationalists. His case was solved. Magnitsky was also a lawyer involved in corruption scandal. He died in prison because he was deprived of proper medical aid for his sickness (something which I guess can happen in Western countries too).

Berezovsky was a notoriously known Russian oligarch. The only person in this list who Putin could (and may be should) gave orders to kill.

The pattern I see right away in this list is that all people were directly or non-directly involved in Chechen War affairs. With the sole exception of Magnitsky. Some of them could be killed by order of Chechen authorities, most notably Estemirova. Though, of course Russia should have properly investigated these cases and not all of them were.

 

[FriendlyFire]

murdered by Russian nationalists.

Now why would a Russian Nationalist kill a Anti-fascist lawyer
(Is joke because Russian Nationalist mean Neo Nazi fascist. A lot of western media has speculated that Russian Fascist are tolerated because they are useful to Putin.)

 

[Daw]

I refering to the growing popularity of Stalin

Yeah, I got that, yet I am not sure it came into the right thread...

The kind crazy Russian mentality, that finds it acceptable for mass death and mass suffering as justified by the results.

Well, results is what competition is about. In competition, you either achieve something, or you go under. So, you kinda gotta achieve. And that calls strain and effort. And that is associated with suffering. So, suffering comes as a result of having to compete.

The problem is that when we finally achieve something trough inhumane effort and suffering, we stop doing anything at all for the next half of a century and rest. While we rest, we get behind and therefore have to start the inhumane effort and suffering all over again (and then praise the leader who had us do it as a national savior). It's a circle.

I guess I'd be much happier if the world switched from competition to cooperation and stopped the mad rat race. But it is exactly what makes me an intolerably disgusting commie, and also it is exactly how capitalism does not and will probably never work.

Why not vote for Catherine the Great ?
Was it because she was German (is joke, Rurik Dynasty was Norwegian, and of Aryan :hides: )

No, it is not because her nationality. As an intolerably disgusting commie, I am also an internationalist, so I have no problems with nationalities at all.

But it is embarrassing to be ruled by a woman, no woman can ever rule us! (kidding)

The real thing was that Catherine was less pragmatic than Peter. So, she is not #1. She was much better than some though, really.
__________________

Now why would a Russian Nationalist kill a Anti-fascist lawyer

Russian ultras would kill anyone (including anti-fascist lawyers) for the same reasons non-Russian ultras would do it: they lawyers interfere and hinder their Nationalist struggle.

(Is joke because Russian Nationalist mean Neo Nazi fascist.

The ultra-radical ones are, and it is no joke actually.

A lot of western media has speculated that Russian Fascist are tolerated because they are useful to Putin.)

The western media is so plenty and creative that there hardly is a thing they have not speculated yet. The most plausible explanation though is, I think, that the radicals are tolerated for exactly the reason they are tolerated in other countries: freedom of speech and self-expression.

Their killing people and breaking things are investigated through routine police case proceedings.

In fact, if they all were collected into a big sack and then dumped into a chasm, even between you and me here on CFC, I guess I will have a hard time explaining to you that they were not completely innocent angels arbitrarily killed by crazy evil Putin for saying they don't like his haircut.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Now why would a Russian Nationalist kill a Anti-fascist lawyer
(Is joke because Russian Nationalist mean Neo Nazi fascist. A lot of western media has speculated that Russian Fascist are tolerated because they are useful to Putin.)

Wow, that is dumb beyond dumbness, in the same the league as nazijew dumbness.

 

[Daw]

While I didn't directly call Russia a dictatorship, I'm kind of on the fence as to whether it should count as one or not. From what I've read it seems more authoritarian than democratic. It's not a clear-cut dictatorship like North Korea or Uzbekistan or somewhere like that.

There is nothing arguable in this position.

IMO, Russia is clearly not a dictatorship.

OTOH, it is clearly not a textbook example of what a democracy should be, of course.

I think it is because people (not all of them, sure, but a noticeable part) tend to show little interest in local elections. According to my observation, they tend to put high hopes (often groundless) into their "supreme leader" (who is Putin at the moment) and then expect him to fix the country all the way down to changing the blown light bulbs in their stairwells. As much as I tried to explain to the people I talked with that it simply doesn't work like that and, and no single man is possibly able to do everything in a huge country, and can't be expected to, it was hopeless.

Another problem is the lack of decent candidates. Last time I was out for the municipal elections, there was about ten of them, and all disastrous.

I may be very wrong, but I honestly thing this is a psychological issue. After the U-turn the socio-economical policy performed in the collapse of the SU and the dawn of modern RF, we were explained that the soviet ideas of communal happiness was inherently wrong and everybody stands for themselves from now on to achieve personal individual happiness through competition.

"Okay," people said and went for it.

Now, going to the government in order to fix the country involves high level of consciousness about and wish to make life better for the others (which we know to be a soviet wrongness). OTOH, going to the government in order to ensure own prosperity (a.k.a. corruption) is very much within the new Russia narrative. And this way we get the rotten candidates which are disgusting to select from, and through that then the authorities who are basically the best of the worst.

This, not the alleged Putin's thirst for power, is what I think to be behind the incentive to appoint the governors and local administration instead of having them elected in some regions.

Besides, this thing about officials chasing self interests instead of public ones is in every authority, including the controlling authorities, law enforcement and courts.

This brings up the problem of "independent courts." I think they are very independent. At least they are more independent than they are thought to be. But it does not make them any better, because "independence" in this context means "uncontrolled and unfettered corruption."
___________

Given all that, imagine you run a business. Say, an office. And you know everybody steals. Managers cut side deals, clerks take away staples, pens, paper, printer cartridges, printers themselves and telephones. You gotta deal with it somehow, but along with that you gotta keep your operation running.

If you fire them all, you'll get closed, understandably. And will also be accused of Stalinist oppressive approach and cursed forever for loosing the company.

OTOH, you can fire them selectively, say 10th percentile of the most blatant and obvious ones every time. You still are going to be accused of Stalinist purges, and also of covering up disgusting thieves (for your personal gain, of course), and then the operation will work struggling and problematic, because while it is not OK for the employee to get caught carrying a copier away, but you turn your blind eye to constantly disappearing rubber erasers and light bulbs, suffering from constant shortage thereof.

But the core difference is that your operation still works. And, as you hire new employees (who for the most part are hardly better than the fired ones), with luck and time your overall team may get healthier.

And while you're busy with that, some guy called Navalny shows up yelling stuff about how you allow people steal and how you do it all wrong about the company management and how he knows better. Okay, you check the guy's pockets and find some scotch tape there he was trying to steal himself. Conclusion: shut the jerk up and boot him out.

In fact, the guy might even be shut up and booted out not by you but by the managers you have not got caught yet.

The list FriendlyFire gave is this; I would strike out Berezovsky and add Nemtsov:

I agree with what Red Elk said on that.

I'm not sure why opposition figures who pose no real threat to Putin tend to be killed. I too would think that it would make more sense to leave them alive, but authoritarian regimes are often paranoid and do go after opponents who pose little threat.

So, it is either that Putin is a paranoid crackpot despot, or... he is not behind that.

Because in other aspects Putin does not behave like a paranoid crackpot despot at all, it tend to think the "he is not behind that" version is true.

 

[FriendlyFire]

The ultra-radical ones are, and it is no joke actually.

The western media is so plenty and creative that there hardly is a thing they have not speculated yet. The most plausible explanation though is, I think, that the radicals are tolerated for exactly the reason they are tolerated in other countries: freedom of speech and self-expression.

Their killing people and breaking things are investigated through routine police case proceedings.

So the whole Russia media, government, propaganda blitz about Ukraine, fascist government, fascist plot against Russia, Fascist EU connection, Fascist come to attack Russia. Whipping up the anti fascist and Russian Nationalism

But inside Russia, it seems Facisim and Neo Nazi not so much a threat and is tolerated to the same extent as western countries. (well except Germany whom are sensitive about such things)

The real scary thing is that estimated 50% of worlds Neo Nazis are Russian. With attacks / violence and murders of foreigners on the rise.

Why I say Fascist / Nationalist groups are "Tolerated" Russia is a joke because the reported murder was ordered it seem by the Russian government.

Kremlin Connection?

According to Khasis, Goryachev was closely connected to the Kremlin administration and its deputy head at the time, Vladislav Surkov. In particular, Goryachev took orders from Leonid Simunin, an alleged member of the administration, Khasis has claimed.

Dmitry Peskov, President Vladimir Putin's spokesman, declined to comment on the story for The Moscow Times on Tuesday. Novaya Gazeta reported last year that the presidential administration had never employed an individual by the name of Leonid Simunin, citing an official comment.

Goryachev's lawyer, Mark Feigin, said the defense is planning to call Surkov as a witness in the trial. Surkov is currently Putin's aide for relations with the breakaway Georgian republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

"When Khasis and Goryachev were questioned together, she claimed outright — and I have this on record — that Surkov, [another man named] Karpov and Simunin ordered the murders, and that Goryachev allegedly told her that in person," Feigin told The Moscow Times

According to Khasis' testimony in court, Goryachev masterminded the murders in order to blackmail Surkov into giving him money to establish a nationalist organization in exchange for halting the spree of killings.

"Whenever we needed money, an artificial problem was created by people like Goryachev and Simunin with the use of Tikhonov and other radical groups — people who are fanatically devoted to certain ideas. Then taxpayers' money was allocated to extinguish the 'flames of revolution' that without these people would never have flared up in the first place," Khasis said during a court hearing, according to the Mediazona news website.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...ntences-for-slew-of-hate-killings/519515.html

 

[Daw]

stuff

What is it are you gibbering about?

Nazism (a.k.a. National Socialism) is banned in Russia, afaik. Nationalism otoh, including the far-right elements, which are represented by a bunch of teen-aged ignorant but energetic idiots, which makes them adore simple solutions, and their middle-aged eccentric patrons doing their political business on that, does exist in the political spectrum.

The jerks on the photo you presented are apparently some monarchist (given the flag) twisted-minded jingoist ultra-crooks of whatever sort who find nothing better to do with their days of youth than to sewer them this way. On top of that, I bet these school-skippers will define themselves as Orthodox Christians if asked.

Politically, they are nobody.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I for one support their political program, which I supposse consist in locking themselves into work camps and eventually get exterminated in gas chambers leaving free space to be repopulated by the ubermensh (aka everybody else)

 

[red_elk]

At least the government doesn't create volunteer battalions out of them and give them weapons, like it does in certain neighboring countries.

 

[red_elk]

What makes people think that russia is a dictatorship?

The fact they have a dictator?

Link to video.

Dog barks, caravan moves on