Live stream "Covert Ops: a Closer Look" Thursday, Sept 11 at 2pm EST

[KingJohn2nd]

AFAIK, this is the first time that we've seen the stats for the HQ.

 

[Olodune]

As far as I am aware, you can map any powered orbital to any location above the surface of the earth. Perhaps you are thinking of geostationary orbits?

Yes, I've always known Geostationary as Geosynchronous, but obviously the former makes more sense -- either way the BE satellites appear as Geostationary which doesn't make any sense. (unless they are expending ridiculous amounts of fuel to maintain their decidedly non-orbital position).

I guess I could just think of them as high altitude balloons or drones.

Edit: According to Wiki I'm not the only one to mix "Geosynchronous" with "Geostationary ".

 

[Acken]

Or satellites that finish their movements always at the same spot at the start of each turn But then they couldn't all stop at the same spot... hmmm.

 

[Olodune]

Or satellites that finish their movements always at the same spot at the start of each turn

Sure, we can go with that explanation. Obviously reality is suspended for fun gameplay - but it annoys me (just a bit) when what could be a solid science fiction game turns into space fantasy.

Back to espionage ... what do you think of the system, Acken? Preliminarily, it looks very random, no? Maybe there are enough spies to offset luck having too much bearing on VC timings ...

 

[Gamewizard]

There are plenty of countermeasures for spies, it just comes at the expense of everything else you could be building/buying.

When ARC starts stealing my gold you better believe I am searching the tech-web for the All-Seer.

edit - I like how going too wide, too unhealthy, makes you a better target for espionage.

 

[Acken]

Sure, we can go with that explanation. Obviously reality is suspended for fun gameplay - but it annoys me (just a bit) when what could be a solid science fiction game turns into space fantasy.

Back to espionage ... what do you think of the system, Acken? Preliminarily, it looks very random, no? Maybe there are enough spies to offset luck having too much bearing on VC timings ...

Yeah well, I think it's better than Civ5 but I'm disappointed it's not even more than that. So I can't say I'm disappointed because it's an improvement but I'm not impressed either.

There seem to be enough variation and thought put in it to make it thematically fun. Another good thing is that you have to think (a little) whether or not you'd like gold, science etc depending on your current objective.

The big unknown right now is how really things will end up in an environment with other players. Will it provides a lot of depth by having to juggle between spying and counter-spying, avoiding civs that are getting ganged upon etc... Or will the AI be just stupid and we will end up ignoring the other spy to grab our bonus every X turns.

The good news about RNG though is if we get a lot of spies and they do a lot of opperations, at least the RNG should converge to theoretical values and may balance over a full game (we'll see). We'll also have to gauge how big the bonuses truly are to assess if it's a big deal or not to miss an operation. Right now I'd say to not believe the stream when it comes to the number shown by these bonuses as it may not be balanced or a real game.

Another disappointment is that it's a very "Fire and forget" system. There's no turn to turn micro involved (or not much). More than civ5 but it's still a system you will use here and there, I doubt it would be useful to even really check much of it between operations.

Finally, one of the aspect I really like about it is that it seems getting spies is a choice. It will up to us to determine when it's good to get a spy (build agency, grab virtues etc). So that's good rather than them being an after thought of moving up in eras in civ5.

These are only a priori.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I'm glad they've put that much efforts in espionage - sci-fi setting, which could have espionage from the start is a good thing for it.

I also overall like how strong effects require cumulative intrigue, which could be countered. This part looks less random than just missions.

 

[Lancor]

Mh, I like what I have seen so far.
It's definately an improvement to espionage in Civ5. Finally spies can do real actions with choice and consequence while you can definately choose if you want to spend ressources into your national espionage program or not.
In Civ5 your spies not only felt weak but you could barely do anything to help them. Although I always liked the more structured espionage system of Civ5 more than the free one in Civ4.

 

[Fabio1701]

MicroProse's F-19 Stealth Fighter is from 1988 or so.

As for the difficulty of operations, I'm guessing those we've seen are mainly the base difficulty. Should be safe to say special buildings and, obviously, counter-intelligence agents would make things harder.

I was kind of disappointed they didn't show whether covert ops have any use when it comes to independent stations.

MAN! I loved that game! and you could turn off crashing into land so you could pretty much land at every SAM site and destroy every missile on the ground with machine gun fire before it launched and rack up points. I loved seeing the uniform of my dude pile on with the medals and awards. Would be nice if there was some visual representation of a spy's history like his dress uniform in CBE.

anyways, sorry, back on topic...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

There are plenty of countermeasures for spies, it just comes at the expense of everything else you could be building/buying.

When ARC starts stealing my gold you better believe I am searching the tech-web for the All-Seer.

edit - I like how going too wide, too unhealthy, makes you a better target for espionage.

Too tall also=too unhealthy (you can offset city unhealth with buildings)

 

[Lord Shadow]

Might be nice to have an operation to kill enemy agents at the target city. In Civ5, spies seemed to be killed only if they botched an offensive action and there was someone to catch them, and here in Beyond Earth agent deaths appear only to be linked with failing offensive actions as well. Risk-free defensive agents (i.e. those covering your capital) can grow to become an invulnerable wall against enemy espionage, and at least in Civ5, you can't quite get rid of them.

An agent assassination op would obviously be difficult if you're up against elite spies, requiring you to use agents of similar quality to have a chance (or be prepared to expend lots of rookies), and it'd mix things up. Either allowing you to punch a hole into the enemy defenses, exploitable until more defensive agents come around, or keep you on your toes, knowing your capital's perfect special agent isn't invincible and might need a replacement eventually.

But. If several agents can defend a city, then killing one wouldn't make a huge difference.

Palace, yes.

Ah, yes. I think it was Capitol in the Call to Power games.

 

[bouncymischa]

Sure, we can go with that explanation. Obviously reality is suspended for fun gameplay - but it annoys me (just a bit) when what could be a solid science fiction game turns into space fantasy.

Well, admittedly, the average LEO satellite takes, what... 90 minutes to make an orbit? There's no real graphical way to represent the satellite's actual movement in a game where turns take at least a year. I suppose they could've at least mapped the sinosoidal path of the satellite on the map as well, but it's kind of unnecessary information. I don't really need to know what path my satellite is taking, just that when it's over the appropriate point on Earth it's doing its business there.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well, admittedly, the average LEO satellite takes, what... 90 minutes to make an orbit? There's no real graphical way to represent the satellite's actual movement in a game where turns take at least a year. I suppose they could've at least mapped the sinosoidal path of the satellite on the map as well, but it's kind of unnecessary information. I don't really need to know what path my satellite is taking, just that when it's over the appropriate point on Earth it's doing its business there.

Well for a "Realistic" satellite game, you would assume that every satellite covers the entire planet.

The more Satellites you have, the bigger effect

Ie each combat Satellite you have in orbit gives ~2% combat boost to your troops, each Weather control satellite gives 1% food boost to your cities
each Solar power Satellite gives X energy directly to your capital
each battle satellite allows you to shoot one unit around the world each turn

Of course then an 'anti-satellite' anywhere in the world could shoot down Any of your satellites.

Essentially Satellites would be a totally non terrain part of the game

 

[Lord Shadow]

Yes, I've always known Geostationary as Geosynchronous, but obviously the former makes more sense -- either way the BE satellites appear as Geostationary which doesn't make any sense. (unless they are expending ridiculous amounts of fuel to maintain their decidedly non-orbital position).

I guess I could just think of them as high altitude balloons or drones.

Edit: According to Wiki I'm not the only one to mix "Geosynchronous" with "Geostationary ".

I don't find satellites being geostationary in CivBE so outlandish. I can assume 23rd century plus engines to be fairly efficient at providing the necessary deltaV to maintain station (~50 m/s per year for equatorial spots). The propellant expenditures may technically be higher to maintain a similar but inclined orbit (necessary to keep satellites over non-equatorial locations), and the satellite would bob north and south a bit, but I think it's an acceptable compromise for gameplay purposes. Satellites do have a limited operational life in Beyond Earth and their position can't be controlled after launch, so it's not too crazy.

 

[SupremacyKing]

Pete tweeted that the covert ops system is highly modable. So modders rejoice:

Pete Murray ‏@FXSPeteMurray 22h
So the livestream ended and @willrmiller turns to me and says: Covert ops is highly mod-able BTW. So! Modders be ye warned.

 

[omniclast]

I kind of dislike the positive-sum system. I'd like to see spy ops at early intrigue levels that mess with your opponent in small ways early on. As it is, I don't see any reason to bother defending against spies before intrigue level three...just like in Civ 5 it was rarely cost efficient to build a constabulary or police station. The positive-sum energy "theft" in particular seems a bit strange...less so the science stealing.

I'm also a bit worried about the RNG. But if you can control it enough that it will be like combat RNG, I suppose I can deal with it.

Overall it seems pretty cool. Probably an aspect of the game I will actually pay attention to now.

Also I really want to get a thumper.

 

[ggmoyang]

If it was zero sum, the gains would be smaller for obvious balance reasons. So not 'stealing' but gaining more could be more useful in SP.

 

[DarkestOnion]

After this Stream ARC is looking like a great way to paint a big old target on my face, in a good way. I am tempted to make a Spying Songs playlist for playing ARC to remind myself to be devious

The high risk/high reward Covert Agent Mechanics in Civ:BE look like I will either fail spectacularly or win spectacularly. It should be great fun don't you think folks?

 

[AriochIV]

I don't find satellites being geostationary in CivBE so outlandish. I can assume 23rd century plus engines to be fairly efficient at providing the necessary deltaV to maintain station (~50 m/s per year for equatorial spots). The propellant expenditures may technically be higher to maintain a similar but inclined orbit (necessary to keep satellites over non-equatorial locations), and the satellite would bob north and south a bit, but I think it's an acceptable compromise for gameplay purposes. Satellites do have a limited operational life in Beyond Earth and their position can't be controlled after launch, so it's not too crazy.

The realism problem is a combination of a geostationary orbit (which is a very high orbit) and the fact that the orbits decay rapidly. Low orbits decay primarily because of interaction with atmosphere; geostationary orbits are tens of thousands of miles high, and would not decay for millions of years.



The other problem is how such a high-flying satellite would be able to affect objects on the ground, such as miasma or being able to heal military units.

It's certainly possible that a high-tech craft could maintain station at low altitude purely through the action of thrusters, but then that would not be an "orbital unit" or "satellite" at all, just a high-flying aircraft. Though that would explain why they have very limited durations.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The realism problem is a combination of a geostationary orbit (which is a very high orbit) and the fact that the orbits decay rapidly. Low orbits decay primarily because of interaction with atmosphere; geostationary orbits are tens of thousands of miles high, and would not decay for millions of years.



The other problem is how such a high-flying satellite would be able to affect objects on the ground, such as miasma or being able to heal military units.

It's certainly possible that a high-tech craft could maintain station at low altitude purely through the action of thrusters, but then that would not be an "orbital unit" or "satellite" at all, just a high-flying aircraft. Though that would explain why they have very limited durations.

Perhaps the presence of floatstone on the planet makes the satellites behave strangely