Ljosalfar Archers

[WarKirby]

While playing a game as the Ljosalfar today, I noticed something which seems horribly wrong.

Archery units cannot learn the Woodsman promotion line

It's understandable maybe, that other races might have problems with it. Arros hitting trees and all. But ljosalfar are a people who spend their entire (extremely long) lives in forests. They should be able to cope far better than most.

The worst thing though, is that warriors can learn woodsman, then upgrade into archers, and they get to keep it. So it's very easy to have woodsman archers, by building them as warriors first and upgrading.

So what is the reason for this horrible arbitrary restriction? All it adds is pointless micromanagement, which is a bad thing. This is a problem from base FFH, not something you guys added. But I've kind of learned that getting things changed is a lot easier in FF, and FF is what I play now anyways. So I'm posting about it here.


I'd like to recommend first of all, that the entire archery unitcombat be given acess to the woodsman promotion line, as they essentially already do with a little micromanagement.

If, for whatever reason, this seems like a bad idea, then how about at least allowing elven archery units to learn it?

 

[xienwolf]

This is a balance type decision, so I wipe my hands clean of it for the most part

But there are 2 ways to approach is fairly easily:

First, as you stated it is kinda fitting for any archer to have access to the promotion, so just allow UnitCobat_Archer on the promotion.

Second, to enable it for only Elven units, you can add a <PromotionAllows> field to both versions of Elven promotion which authorizes Woodsman, then absolutely every elven unit (mounted, archery, disciple, worker, even the settlers. Anything that winds up with Elven race) can get Woodsman.

 

[zup]

And the woodsman 2? Makes it impossible to respond in ancient forests without recon, who do not heal, ever.

 

[WarKirby]

This is a balance type decision, so I wipe my hands clean of it for the most part

But there are 2 ways to approach is fairly easily:

First, as you stated it is kinda fitting for any archer to have access to the promotion, so just allow UnitCobat_Archer on the promotion.

Second, to enable it for only Elven units, you can add a <PromotionAllows> field to both versions of Elven promotion which authorizes Woodsman, then absolutely every elven unit (mounted, archery, disciple, worker, even the settlers. Anything that winds up with Elven race) can get Woodsman.

Actually, I like both of these ideas. It would be quite fitting for elven units that can't normally learn such things, to be able to have it.

However it's kind of illogical in general that archer units can't learn it. So enabling it for all archers would be a good idea.

 

[JonathanStrange]

As a longtime Ljosalfar enthusiast, I've long used the upgrade workaround in which I upgrade a warrior unit with the Woodsman I promotion - oddly available to Melee and Recon lines only - but, frankly, the 75 coins upgrade cost is rather pricey in the early turns and I rarely have more than a few of these units. By the time I have the extra cash, archers aren't that big a deal anymore as the Elven armies start getting swordsman, adepts, fauns, etc.

When it would count - in the early game, as advanced pickets and forward defenders, when the 30% attack/defense bonus would really be awesome against AI stack of axemen or mobs of raging barbarians, Ljolsalfar archer bonuses are mainly city or hill related.

There is a 10% Forest Attack bonus that the archers always start with but, come on, that's none too impressive.

Do recall that the Ljosalfar have an adept Nature spell promotion (easily achieved) called "Treetop Defense" which allows instant full fortification bonus of 25% percent, so the Elf archer/adept stack can attack within a forest while receiving the defense bonus. So that's something...sigh...I have to look for the positive...

BTW; the Woodsman II promotion is available only after spending over 1300 beakers on the Hidden Paths tech and then restricted to the recon and beast lines. I'll use it for rangers of course, but mostly as a side benefit for being able to switch to the Guardian of Nature civic.

Obviously, I'd like Elven archers to have access to at least Woodsman I. It seems thematic and not unreasonable. I don't see it as unbalancing either: the other races' defense bonus in woods would simply offset the elves' attack bonus. If it is seen as unbalancing, perhaps making the Woodsman I bonus available only within the forests within the Elven nation - say as a reflection of their extreme familiarity with their Homeland's woods.

They're Elves, for Galadriels' sake!

 

[Iceciro]

I actually, at the VERY ABSOLUTE LEAST would like to see elves in thier borders, in a forest, given the kind of temporary buff-promotion thing that archers behind walls get, that gives the woodsman bonuses.

I think much like WarKirby does, that 1) all elves should be able to get Woodsman and 2) all archers should.

 

[zup]

I'd rather see that melee and archers could get woodsman 2 too. It would not fit mounted. Arcane and disciples, well I'd rather see them avoiding direct combat at all costs.

 

[Vehem]

I actually, at the VERY ABSOLUTE LEAST would like to see elves in thier borders, in a forest, given the kind of temporary buff-promotion thing that archers behind walls get, that gives the woodsman bonuses.

I think much like WarKirby does, that 1) all elves should be able to get Woodsman and 2) all archers should.

The first question here would have to be "Are Elves too weak in forests?"

My preferred fix if they were would be to give them a "treetop defense" style ability (instantly maxes out your fortification in a forest as if you'd been there 5 turns, even if you've moved).

===

For point 2 - why do archers get Woodsman where Disciples or Adepts wouldn't? Bow-armed forest hunters/rangers are a nice fantasy image - but would be represented by the "Hunter" or "Ranger" unit - even if they don't carry bows in the representation we have. Archer units are representative of larger bodies of soldiers - there's no real reason that they'd be inherently able to use the trees to their advantage and their weapons are surely hindered by large wooden trunks and branches getting in their lines of fire. This sort of unit wouldn't have commonly used target archery, but the original form (arrows fired in volleys into the air, then allowed to fall amongst the enemy).

 

[WarKirby]

The first question here would have to be "Are Elves too weak in forests?"

I think more specifically. "Are Wood Elves too weak in forests?" I would answer yes.

The Svartalfar focus on recon units, who are capable of having woodsman promotions.

The Ljosalfar focus on archery units, who are NOT capable of woodsman.

This yields an imbalance between the two, I feel. One is better adapted to the natural habitat that they both share.

 

[WarKirby]

For point 2 - why do archers get Woodsman where Disciples or Adepts wouldn't?

Presumably, because disciples and adepts focus their studies on magical, and divine arts. They have little care for martial disciplines like military tactics.

Oh, but priests of leaves at least, should, if they don't already.

Bow-armed forest hunters/rangers are a nice fantasy image - but would be represented by the "Hunter" or "Ranger" unit - even if they don't carry bows in the representation we have. Archer units are representative of larger bodies of soldiers - there's no real reason that they'd be inherently able to use the trees to their advantage and their weapons are surely hindered by large wooden trunks and branches getting in their lines of fire. This sort of unit wouldn't have commonly used target archery, but the original form (arrows fired in volleys into the air, then allowed to fall amongst the enemy).

This is a fantasy mod

I would say, not necessarily using the trees to their advantage. But by training in that environment, they would learn to minimise the disadvantage. Learn to make new arrows from fallen branches. Gathering poisonous plants to taint their arrowheads. Learning to identify human footsteps from animals.

Granted, some of it is covered by things like the rangers. But I would say the Ranger unit is representative of a single man, highly trained, and working on subtlety. Archers are more of an overwhelming force. But they would learn to better coordinate their volleys, to fire at angles that will make their arrows fall through branches, rather than getting caught. To avoid mistaking a tree for a person and wasting arrows, etc.

It could be similarly argued, why can large regiments of melee soldiers learn woodsman? I think if they can, so too should archers.

 

[Sephi]

The first question here would have to be "Are Elves too weak in forests?"

My preferred fix if they were would be to give them a "treetop defense" style ability (instantly maxes out your fortification in a forest as if you'd been there 5 turns, even if you've moved).

That sounds great.
Is it possible to change the promotions of a unit when it is upgraded? For example if a warrior is upgraded to an archer, he loses city raider or woodsmen and gains some drill or archery promotions instead.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Although the Treetop Defense Spell is easily available to newly-minted Adepts - and it makes the low-level magic user quite valuable, I have them acccompany Ljolsalfar troops - researching the Knowledge of the Ether (672 beakers) just to enable archers to have some access to what Elven melee and recon troops can get after one promotion seems a little odd.

As for losing the Woodsmen I promotion because of upgrading, I'd lose most of the reason for the upgrade: spending 75 coin on a melee unit whose primary advantage was the Woodsmen I promotion doesn't seem as attractive when it's substituted with a Drill Promotion.

 

[Sephi]

As for losing the Woodsmen I promotion because of upgrading, I'd lose most of the reason for the upgrade: spending 75 coin on a melee unit whose primary advantage was the Woodsmen I promotion doesn't seem as attractive when it's substituted with a Drill Promotion.

But you might have a reason then to build elven hunters ;-)

 

[zup]

The real reason to get archers from warriors is march. Nothing substitutes the permanent healing bonus and heal on move. Regeneration is good, but not as good. It's a lot of hassle to make sure all units have it on at all times. Even Calabim (90% of the army can cast regeneration) will love march, because it saves micromanagement and the healing effect stacks (i think).

City raider is very nice too, but getting cr 3 and march is pushing it. Viable if you pop an adventurer early, pyre is a good place to get them. For measly 101 xp (1 battle won) you get woodsman 1, city raider 3, and march for a warrior. Then just upgrade to flurry and you have a very good city buster.

Woodsman is really just icing on the cake.

 

[WarKirby]

It does make me wonder why march isn't available for archery units either.

I see a big problem here. If something is available in a roundabout way with lots of micromanagement, it should be available plainly and easily, I think. Micromanagement is a bad thing, and anything to reduce it is a good idea.

 

[Skitters]

For point 2 - why do archers get Woodsman where Disciples or Adepts wouldn't? Bow-armed forest hunters/rangers are a nice fantasy image - but would be represented by the "Hunter" or "Ranger" unit - even if they don't carry bows in the representation we have. Archer units are representative of larger bodies of soldiers - there's no real reason that they'd be inherently able to use the trees to their advantage and their weapons are surely hindered by large wooden trunks and branches getting in their lines of fire. This sort of unit wouldn't have commonly used target archery, but the original form (arrows fired in volleys into the air, then allowed to fall amongst the enemy).

Have to agree

Archery Range pedia entry
Pheayl looked across the range, his keen eye seeking the target, without taking his eye from his quarry he reached for his quiver and withdrew an arrow&#8212;avoiding the carefully aligned fletchlings that would help guide it. Notching the arrow to his trusty yew bow, he eased it back, increasing the tension on the bowstring. Using the mantra taught to him by his hunter father, Pheayl closed down unnecessary senses concentrating on his target. His tongue tip flicked out, a habit of his that some had dubbed as him tasting the wind direction. Finally he relaxed his grip, and watched satisfied as the arrow met its target.

&#8220;Nice aim Pheayl,&#8221; Kirim assured him, but addressing the whole company, &#8220;&#8230;but on the field of battle you will not be afforded the luxuries of time. At this camp you will unlearn the techniques you have developed for hunting quarry. Here you will learn that you are one amongst many, that range, speed and firing on mass are more important than individuals seeking specific targets. Killing one Goblin twenty yards out will not halt a charge, maiming five fifty yards out just might.&#8221;


Of course with the Ljos, it does put them in a position having their primary troop type poorly suited to combat in the civs preferred terrain....but the bow is still best employed in open terrain because woodland naturally limits the bows main advantage of range.

 

[Hawkwood]

Of course with the Ljos, it does put them in a position having their primary troop type poorly suited to combat in the civs preferred terrain....but the bow is still best employed in open terrain because woodland naturally limits the bows main advantage of range.

Another thing about the bow is that, like any other ranged weapon, it is less powerful over long distances. In a forest the distances are shorter which means the bows range doesn't mean as much, but people move slower in a forest, and with I think the Ljosalfar would know how to use the natural terrain of a forest so the archers are more shielded, causing the lack of range to be less of a problem while increasing the amount of time enemies are close enoug that the bow is very powerful, but not too close so you can't use it.

EDIT: Another thing to note is that the Welsh used the longbow a lot in forest battles against the English. So even a longbow is usable in a forest.

 

[Iceciro]

I dunno, I've always seen the archer's attack in forests as more of a "spread out and pick them off while they try to find you" deal, regardless of what the animation shows. Especially in Ljo home terrain, I see it more like fanning out and picking off the floundering enemy army guerilla style. Archers have a benefit of being lighter than the troops that are moving through - moreso for the elven races who are supposed to be quick and graceful.

My idea for the way Ljosalfar archers operate in a forest environment can probabaly be pretty well summed up by the movie the Patriot when the three people take out an entire enemy group as they move through the forest by moving and shooting. Bit of a silly way to put it but it was the only thing my caffeine-starved mind could come up with this morning

I think it would be silly to assume that the elven archers don't have some techniques for fighting battles in forests - they're elves, they live there and that's what they defend. The arrows flying through the air enmasse is probabaly exactly what they do - in open terrain, where it works. A group of military units, especially ones as long-lived as elves, will learn different ways to operate in different terrain.

 

[WarKirby]

in forests around where I used to live, there were plenty of clearings, riverbanks, and natural paths, where bow users would still have had plenty of space to shoot from afar.

 

[HadesScorn]

Wow, regular 180-250 yard openings? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

/end sarcasm
/begin Devil's Advocate

I believe Vehem raises an excellent counter point. While the bow can be situationally powerful in very specific places inside a dense wood, these areas are fairly easy to identify and avoid while moving through as an opposing force.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1013280/Crossing-a-Linear-Danger-Area

Specifically, slides 17 and 18.

The reason why LDAs are the ideal place for ranged troops to ambush is because it provides a clear field of fire, a front on which to engage the enemy, and definable flanks for you to protect until you disengage/win. When ambushing in other terrain, several other factors come into play. How close does the body of troops get before you can see and react to them? How concentrated can you make your forces if you don't know where the enemy is moving?

On the other hand, melee soldiers actually have good reason to learn woodcraft. Unlike an archer, they are best when they are at knife-range. Being able to hide until the opponent is close enough and then strike lets them close quickly. Archers, usually less armored and with a long dagger/short sword at best for personal defense, must rely either on a corps of soldiers protecting their line or withdraw very quickly from each position before it is overrun.

/end DA

To avoid mistaking a tree for a person and wasting arrows, etc.

This was the best way to wake up ever.