LK168, Greece, Sid Attempt

[Jersey Joe]

If we don't fight now, they would have any less troops if we make peace and delay 20 turns.

Elephantium has a good plan. It may need a little work in the later steps starting at step 5.
The road is in neutral territory and the Indochinese will get the same movement bonus we have.
Maybe rush a Castle then walls in Knossos. Also build a road directly north from Knossos to increase our killing field.

 

[Elephantium]

@Civinator You would know the game mechanics better than I do. I'm glad to read that it won't prevent us from getting GLs.

@Jersey Joe - Yeah, taking a second look, we could spend one Hoplite every other turn to pillage the road that we're attacking from - that would delay their advance to the river by a couple of turns.

Looking at the 975 AD save, we can get the following to Knossos by the end of LK's turnset, which is approximately when Indochina will attack the city.
Byzantium builds 1-turn Cataphracts: 7
Delphi can build 2-turn Cataphracts: 3
Sparta builds 2-turn Pikemen: only 2. Maybe switch to 3-turn Cataphracts when Indochina reaches the river? That would give us one extra attacker for whatever Indochinese units reach the city, I think.
Thermopylae is awkward @ 13spt, 4-turn Cataphracts for 2.
Athens can build 4-turn Cataphracts: 2

Doesn't look like Pharsalos or Knossos can contribute troops at this point.

 

[LKendter]

975 AD (0)
Thermopylae switches to school of divinity. With the war going on I hate to delay troops, but a few monks would really help with city captures.
I find some gems to trade. I give them to Japan for $6/T and $53. I want to keep gems going out at all times.
Elephants are to be trade bait. I give them to Spain for bodkin arrows and $243.
(IT) The French have been destroyed.
Indo-China already wants a peace treaty.
A large stack from Indo-China comes into range.


1000 AD (1)
The exploring chariot turns around. I want every possible unit on the front. That first stack already looks tough.

I'm not sure how long it will take to kill that stack, so the workers head backwards.

I lost an enslaver to the Indo-China catapult. The next enslaver simply kills it. (1-1)
(IT) An even larger stack from Indo-China appears. It took forever to watch all the units move.


1025 AD (2)
I kill Indo-China: 1 archer and 12 spears. I lost 2 catapults, 1 Cataphract and 2 chariots. (14-6)
I pillage the road and retreat backwards. The only path to victory I can see is to build the new city behind the river, and hope Indo-China burns up the mega-stacks against the city.
(IT) Indo-China splits the stack up in 3 different directions.


1050 AD (3)
I kill Indo-China: 1 warrior, 1 spear and 4 archers. I lost: 2 Cataphract. (20-8)
(IT) Scandinavia declares war on Israel.


1050 AD in still in the first age is horrible. We may be hopelessly behind in tech.

I am still plugging away, but it looks BAD. Without a bigger empire we can't win. However, there is just way too much attacking us. So far the kill ratio has been horrible. With the number of units coming from Indo-China we need 4, if not 5 to 1.

 

[LKendter]

1075 AD (4)
Argos is founded.

I kill Indo-China: 1 enslaver and 3 archers. I lost 3 Cataphract. (24-11)
That Cataphract died attacking an enslaver.

Nothing is visible at the moment. However, that Cataphract that killed the last archer sees more monster stacks on the way.
I can hold my ground this turn.
(IT) South America establishes an embassy with us.

 

[LKendter]

Spain is building there UW that comes with naval guns. They have researched at least 5 techs the next age. Since the AI tends to go for the top of the tech tree, it is probably closer to 10 techs.

 

[LKendter]

1100 AD (5)
Argus gets its walls rushed.

This is insane. An Indo-China stack of 115 troops are visible.

I kill Indo-China: 5 spears and 3 archers. I lost 1 Cataphract. (32-12)

I think our enslavers are defective. I've still haven't gotten a free worker.

 

[LKendter]

Summary:
I am turning this over early. I see no path to victory, and I hope a fresh set of eyes can find it.
We are 8 to 10 techs behind the leaders. Without taking over another civ we have no chance to catch up. I see no way to take out Indo-China with the absurd stack visible. The kill ratio is < 3 to 1. That isn't close to what we need.


ROSTER:
LKendter
Jersey Joe (up)
Elephantium (on deck)
Greebley

 

[Jersey Joe]

I got it.

 

[Greebley]

Well that is more units than I was thinking. However, it was also as many units as we could afford and still run science. If we need to make peace to build the units up again, I guess we do that and then go again with knights?

Are we also playing the smaller map size? The tech rate there is so high already.

 

[Jersey Joe]

There is a glimmer of hope. I played 3 turns and killed off over 30 spearman and have started killing warriors.
I can trade for Chivalry but it is expensive about 120 gpt. That would leave us with about 15 gpt at 10% Science. I prefer to wait on trading for Chivalry. Getting it now would mean that while Byzantium would be able to build 1 turn Knights, any other city would take 3 or more turns to build a knight. Also, I am using the gpt to let me short rush Cataphart and some Buildings.

Are we also playing the smaller map size? The tech rate there is so high already.

We are playing on a huge map will all other civs

 

[Jersey Joe]

It is looking even better I can only see 6 regular Golden Spearmen and none are next to any of our cities. Also, our Enslavers have provide us with several slaves. I think by the end of my turn set we will be able to go on the offensive.

 

[LKendter]

WOW, did the AI stupidly split the stacks? I don't get how things changed so much.
Grats on the enslavers gaining workers. I was getting frustrated with their total failure my 5 turns.

 

[Jersey Joe]

WOW, did the AI stupidly split the stacks? I don't get how things changed so much.

The stacks stayed about the same as you saw them, but they have yet to attack one of our cities. I withdrew all our troops to Argos (I rushed a Castle there) and they moved their stack (26 Warriors, 16 Archers, 34 Spearmen) up to the Walls. I was able to attack them without leaving the city. They never attacked Argos, they just kept moving south. I kept attacking without leaving Argos and now that they are next to Knossos (which they have not yet attacked) and it looks like they might be trying to reach Athens. The initial stack I mentioned now consists of 1 wounded Warrior and 6 Archers. My kill ratio is about 10 to 1.

 

[Jersey Joe]

@Civinator My concern is the other way around, that the flag that makes a Greek Hero appear on F3 also prevents new GLs from appearing.

Proving what Civinator said about it nor being a problem, I have had 4 Great Leaders so far and rushed 3 Castles and a Marketplace (since all our cities have a Castle).

I am considering trading for Chivalry. I haven't made a serious search for the best price. I have a 2 quotes for the same amount, all our gold 306 and 114 gold/turn.
Pro/Con: We get into the next era. No chance for immediate trades.
Pro: We can build Knights. Con we will not have any gold for updating our Cataphract.
Indirect Pro we are paying 116 gpt for troops support. As we capture cities or lose units this cost will go down. Also, for some cities it will extend the time to build a unit by 1 turn.

Who does the team feel about this trade, I will wait till Sunday to play on and spend the rest of Saturday preping for Thanksgiving.
Here is a screen shot showing what is left of the Indochinese stacks (1 spearmen, 3 warriors and 6 archers).

 

[LKendter]

What happened to our self-research on chivalry? I know it was better than 40 turns my set. We need quality to beat Indo-China quantity. My vote is to make the trade. Sadly we will be screwed for research to the next 20 turns. We badly need to get moving on the next era tech, but with that absurd price I don't see how.
The Indo-China war is now going good, so that issue is solved. The bad part of this trade is how are we going to dig our self out this horrid tech whole.

 

[Elephantium]

I say make the deal. It'll hurt gold flow for a bit, but that will work itself out as we fight Indochina.

Did we end the Iron for Tobacco deal with the Mongols? What about Gems and Hardwood deals? Those might help with the raw gold cost of buying Chivalry.

Also, in the 1100 save, the second Ancient Naval Explorer was re-exploring the coast towards Brazil. It should turn towards Japan and head south on Japan's landmass.

Since we're struggling so much to keep up on research, might it be worthwhile to focus on gpt and run single-scientist research to feed tech trades?

 

[Jersey Joe]

What happened to our self-research on chivalry? I know it was better than 40 turns my set

I needed gold to rush things (Castles in Argos and Knossos + short rushing Cataphract) so I dropped the slider. If I now set the slider to 50% Chivalry would be due in 15 turns.
Since you and Elephantium agree that I should make the trade I am going to do it and should finish tonight.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Did we end the Iron for Tobacco deal with the Mongols? What about Gems and Hardwood deals?

See 1300 AD in the report

Continuing 1100 AD:
Convert the Scientists in Athens to Engineers and will hire more, Palace Guard in 3 turns.
Hire 4 Engineers in Thermopylae, School will be built in 1 turn.
Hire 4 Engineers in Delphi, Castle in 2 turns.

I want to rush a Castle in Argos. So I drop Science slider to 0% and hire merchants where possible.
FYI: With the science slider to 0% I could buy Chivalry. I am not doing this (yet).

Sell Hardwood to the Arabs for 63 gold.
Sell Incense to Scandinavia for 14 gold.

IBT:
Chariot killed by Indochinese Warrior(0, 1);

1125 AD:
Sell Hardwood to the Turkey for 47 gold.

North of Argos: Ballistae kill 2 Golden archers (2, 1): Enslaver captures a Golden Spearman (3, 1); Cataphart kill 3 Golden Spearmen (6, 1).

Our Heroes and Hoplites fall back to defend Argos.

Since we did not get a Great Leader, I Rush Castle in Argos.

IBT: Gem deal with Spain expires. On renegotiation we go from 10 gpt to 9 gpt + 10 gold lump sum.

1150 AD:
Defense of Argos: We lose 2 Cataphart in the attack by our combined mobile troops and we kill 23 Golden Spearmen (26, 4).

IBT: We meet the Koreans, they know Chivalry which will reduce the cost of it for us.

1175 AD:
The 2 gem deposits by Knossos get hooked up.

Defense of Argos: Ballistae and Catapults kill 5 Golden Spearmen (31, 4); Elite Cataphart kill 2 Golden Spearman (33, 4) and we get a Great Leader. Great Leader goes to rush a Castle.
Cataphart kill 3 Golden Spearman (36, 4); Footknight kills the last Golden Spearman in the Stack (37, 4); Heros kill 4 Warriors (41, 4); Enslavers capture 2 Warriors (43, 4); Two (2) Hoplites are killed by Warriors (43, 6) and I stop attacking with 1 offense units.

I sell Gems to Turkey for 172 gold.
I sell Gems to Korea for 199 gold.

IBT: One of the Indochinese stacks moves south away from Argos towards Knossos.

1200 AD:
North of Knossos, Cataphart kills Warrior (44, 6).

Defense of Argos: Cataphart kill 3 Golden Spearmen (47, 6) and we get a Great Leader. Chariot kills Spearman (48, 6); Cataphart kill 5 Spearmen (53, 6); Enslaver captures Spearman (54, 6); Footknights kill 2 Spearman (56, 6); Heros kill 2 Spearmen (58, 6); Enslaver captures Warrior (59, 6); Cataphart kills Spearman (60, 6); Cataphart killed by Spearman (60, 7);Cataphart kill 4 Spearmen (64, 7); Enslavers kill a Warior and capture a Warrior (66, 7); Footknights kill 2 Warriors (68, 7).

1225 AD:
Great Leader rushes Castle in Sparta.

We make contact with the backward and broke Persians.

Defense of Argos: Balistae kill 3 Golden Spearmen (77, 7); Longbow kills Spearman (78, 7); Enslaver captures an Archer (79, 7); Cataphart kill 2 Spearmen (81, 7); Catapult kills Spearman (82, 7); Enslaver captures a Warrior (83, 7) and we get a Great Leader. Great Leader will rush a Castle in Pharsalos, next turn (if I counted right).
Footknight killed by Spearman (83, 8); Heros kill 3 Spearmen (86, 8); Enslaver captures an Archer (87, 8); Enslaver kills warrior (88, 8).

1250 AD:
Great Leader reaches Pharsalos but is too tired to rush the building construction, It will have to wait till next turn.

We make contact with Austria Hungary. They already know Chivalry.

Trade Bodkin Arrows to Egypt for 11 gold and 1 gpt.

Defending Argos: Longbow kills Golden Spearman (89, 8); Hero kills Spearman (90, 8); Hero kills Archer (91, 8); Enslaver kills an Archer (92, 8); Enslaver captures a Warrior (93, 8); Catapult kills Spearman (94, 8); Chariots kill 2 Spearmen (96, 8); Footknight killed by Archer (96, 9); Pike kills Archer (97, 9). The walls of Argos are cleared of enemy troops. Our troops can move south to help with the defense of Knossos.

Defense of Knossos: Cataphract kill 2 Golden Archers (99, 9) who where on the road between Argos and Knossos. Cataphract arriving from Argos kill 5 Warriors (104, 9). We lose 2 of the newly arrived Cataphract killing 6 Archers (110, 11).

IBT: Japan wants to stop supplying us with Wine. I give their trade minister a gift of 170 gold and he extends our trade agreement for another 20 cycles.

At Knossos: Pikemen successfully defend against the first attack by Indochina against one of our cities by killing 3 Golden Archers and 2 Warriors (115, 11).

1275 AD:
Great Leader rushes a Castle in Pharsalos.

Near Argos: Balistae kill 2 Golden Spearmen (117, 11); Hero kills Archer (118, 11); Cataphract kills Warrior (119, 11); Enslavers capture a Warrior and an Archer (121, 11); Enslavers kill a Warrior and an Archer (123, 11); Chariot kills Archer (124, 11).

Defending Knossos: Cataphract kills a Spearman (125, 11); Cataphract kill 2 Archers (127, 11); Chariot kills Archer and kills a second Archer with a biltz attack (129, 11); Cataphart kill 5 Archers (134).

IBT: It looks like the Indochinese had enough of our hospitality as they are moving their units to outside our borders.

1300 AD:
Near Argos: Balistae kill 2 Golden Archers (136, 11); Catapults kill 2 Spearmen (138, 11); Chariot kills a Warrior and kills a second Warrior with a biltz attack (140, 11); Heros kill 2 Archers (142, 11); Enslaver kills an Archer (143, 11).

Near Knossos: Cataphract kills a Golden Archer (144, 11). Cataphract kills an Archer (145, 11) and we get a Great Leader.
Great Leader rushes a Market in Knossos.
Cataphract kill 2 Archers (147, 11).

I renegotiate our current Gem, Tobacco, and Iron trades with the Mongol Khantes.
We get Chivalry and Tobacco and they get Gems, Iron, 306 gold and 88 gpt.
Byzantium begins Building Royal Tournament due in 4 turns.

1310 AD:
Enslaver captures a Golden Archer (148, 11); Enslaver kills Archer (149, 11); Chariot kills Spearman (150, 11).

1320 AD:
North of Argos: Ballista kills Golden Spearman (151, 11); Chariot kills Archer (152, 11);

West Of Knossos: Cataphract kill 2 Warriors (154, 11); and get a Great Leader.
The Great Leader rushes a Marketplace in Argos.
Cataphract kill 3 Warriors (157, 11); Enslavers kill 2 Warriors (159, 11); Cataphract kill 6 Archers (165, 11). There are no longer any Indochinese units in our territory.

IBT: North of Argos: Hoplite kills Indochinese Chariot (166, 11); Footknight forces an Elephant to retreat.

1330 AD: I played an extra turn by mistake. I did not notice that the turns changed from 25 years to 10 years and was watch for 1350.
North of Argos: Footknight kills Enslaver (167, 11); Ballista kills Indochinese Elephant (168, 11); Enslaver captures Enslaver (169, 11) and comes come face to face with an Elephant.
Cataphract killed by Elephant (169, 12); Chariot kills Golden Spearman (170, 12); Cataphract kills Catapult (171, 12); Cataphract kills Archer (172, 12); Enslaver captures Elephant (173, 12).


Notes:

• There are small groups of workers north of Delphi. My goal was to have a group take 2 turns to finish irrigating, when done they would go help the other group finish the chop, road and irrigate.
  • The lone individual just got here after being captured near Argos. I do not not if it will help the other 2 groups’ efficiency. I planned on using it to just start roading a hill and have the other workers (after they finished irrigating) help finish the road and mine the hill.
• Byzantium: As you can see, needs the 2 units guarding it for the extra happy face. Thermopylae is building a Pikeman to replace the Catapult.
• The roading team north of Argos builds 1 turn roads.
  • There are more than enough workers clearing the swamp at Athens to provide a 1 turn road team.
• There are 10 unmoved units north of Argos. They all are capable of moving onto but not past the enslaver at the Indochinese border.
  • My guess is that the Golden Spearman on the border is on a “goto” and will run the Enslaver between turns.
• I have upgraded a few Cataphracts to Knights.
  • The upgrade costs 30 gold.

 

[LKendter]

I wonder if I just hit a bad RNG streak during my set. 14 to 1 is way better than the 3 to 1 I had for kill ratio.
I also noticed enslavers started working again. We badly need more workers.
That was a great run of leaders. Getting a bunch of rushed castles helped a lot.
Congrats to JJ on a great set.
It feels close to be able to go on the offensive vs Indo-China. Taking over their lands will work on the problem of our empire being too small to compete. The only bad thing with Indo-China is that they are catching up on tech. They have gotten one benefit from us killing to so many troops.

We don't have the income at the moment, but there is potential for trading now. Theology would give us a chance for 2 potential trades.



ROSTER:
LKendter
Jersey Joe
Elephantium (up)
Greebley (on deck)

 

[Jersey Joe]

I think I had a really good RNG streak sort of a revert to the norm after your bad streak. Also, I wonder how much attacking from behind city Walls inside a Castle helped the kill ratio. Before 1250 AD almost all of my fighting was our troops killing enemies next to the city walls. It was only the last 2 or 3 turns that I was fighting outside of the city.