1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

LK38 - PTW, Deity Challenge

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by LKendter, Jan 6, 2003.

  1. Sirian

    Sirian Designer, Mohawk Games

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Move the capital via leader? To where? :)

    The only way that might make sense is if we take over Korea, completely, while all the other AI's are still strong.

    Moving the capital means abandoning low corruption in our original core. Yet that's where all our markets, banks, factories and high population will be. It takes a lot of time, care, and effort, to build up a new core from scratch. Even captured cities have to build all culture from scratch.

    Lee, I think you're still overestimating the importance and value of distance between the two palaces. In GOTM14, I built my FP in a city about the same distance from the capital as this site would be. I conquered the world in 1750AD and won the conquest trophy. That was with having to produce troops into the modern era. I had leaders enough to move the capital into the heart of former Persian lands, but that would only have SLOWED ME down, because none of those areas had factories, markets, etc.

    Using a leader to rush the FP in an ideal site in the middle of AI territory, with an ancient war, can be a great plan. So is building the FP right on top of the capital and moving the capital later. These are warmongering game plans, though. They don't achieve the best results if you end up staying out of wars and building up peacefully.

    I'm not suggesting either of those. We haven't gone the ruthless whip-our-civ-into-the-dirt mass-upgrade-to-swords route. If you are running a builder gameplan and trying to stay out of wars until your economy and production improve, you have to make the most of what you have. The AI's have all been locked into heavy warring lately, which means they are all very unit-heavy. We might knock Korea or India off our shore, a couple of villages, then make peace before they can do any real harm, but that's not the same as going over to Korea or marching up into Mongolia and taking over. And those dry shores I'm talking about as reasonable for us to try to take over, wouldn't be worth moving to anyway.

    If you're really intent on shooting for two perfect cores, then the FP should be built in Sabratha instead. Either way, we need to choose quickly.


    - Sirian
     
  2. Lt. 'Killer' M.

    Lt. 'Killer' M. Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    7,475
    Sirian: I agree that jumping the Palace is a warmongers thingy - but as you well know deity games can go weird paths. I think lee only wanted you all to remember that if you build the FP somewhat close to the capital you can still move your core (which i might consider after my first Cavalry war with Factories built in the 'old core').

    That has often prooven good for me, especially the no-flip chance for the new capital. :D
     
  3. Gothmog

    Gothmog Dread Enforcer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,352
    I haven't seen a map, but I'll be weighing options for a hand built FP in our second ring. Most likely the city Sirian built on the fresh water (I forget the name), that way if the mongols do come for us we can have low corruption in our new former mongol holdings.

    I will also be looking with displeasure at the AI's in our homeland. Any thoughts about the advantages of a limited war soonish (knights?) and getting our golden age now vs. allowing the evil AI to keep cities in our homeland and waiting for cavs to go to war (then we can choose to take our GA at that time or even wait longer).
     
  4. Gothmog

    Gothmog Dread Enforcer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,352
    Summary: The FP will be good where Sirian started it. Not much happened. Started some marketplaces to take better advantage of our commercial/republic situation. Built some NMs, no horses. Other civs have feudalism, the Persians and Koreans have theology and engineering. We couldn't afford the brokering possibility on my turns. The tech pace is blistering even with all the wars, in part due to our sucessful past brokerings. I did hook up iron just to take advantage of the shield bonus on that hill - we don't need any more warriors anyway.

    Report: Preturn - Woah, the mongols could surely take us out if they wanted. Good thing they are polite and have other foes. A quick check reveals a RoP with them too. Click - Persia declares war on the mongols (good). Russia demands literature from us, I decline and Cathy backs down.

    410BC - 250 BC: Found Nora in a spot with no 9 square overlap and in postition to use a few plains, set to temple. I notice that there is one flood plain in its territory, cool. Had to increase lux to 30% to keep Leptis Magna at full production. Made a priority of getting wines hooked up ASAP. IT 350BC peace was made between the Germans and Russia, Scand, and the Mongols. Good thing the Mongols are at war with Persia. Germany wants a MA vs. the Indians, I decline. A Korean settler/spear emerges from Paegam. Wines come online and I reduce lux to 20%.

    Thoughts: not much to say. The markets in Hippo and Leptis Minor could be swapped to Courthouses if desired. Hippo will be near the FP when it completes however. I sold the map whenever I cleared some new fog with the galley, got 9 gp from Russia for it once. I would advise doing some cashrushing to reduce our treasury. Construction was really just starting during my turns. We won't be ready for war any time soon.

    The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk38_250bc.zip
     
  5. Gothmog

    Gothmog Dread Enforcer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,352
    and a screen shot:
     
  6. Reagan

    Reagan Remember Our Troops

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    Houston
    It looks like we are doing well so far. Just a couple of thoughts:

    - FP placement - Leptis Magna seems fine to me, too. Expecting a leader rush of a Palace or FP is probably wishful thinking. If we are to expand our holdings, southern Mongolia would be a valuable patch of real estate to "acquire." Unfortunately, it may be awhile before we have the muscle to accomplish that. That said, I would discourage us from waging any wars unless necessary. A diplo victory might be our best bet, especially with all of the fighting (and resulting spoiled AI relationships) that has taken place so far. The Mongols are bad boys right now and dumping the Koreans, Indians, and/or Russians out of our vicinity would likely cost us votes in exchange for some ~unproductive turf.

    - Iron connection - I agree with Sirian's assessment regarding leaving the Iron unconnected and believe we should pillage the current Iron connection in order to save it from a potentially bad RNG result. The road only adds some (potentially corrupted) trade but doesn't impact the production from the resource.
     
  7. Gothmog

    Gothmog Dread Enforcer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,352
    With some preparation we should be able to take Paegam from Korea. If we get them to declare on us there will be no reputation hit to speak of. Even they will get over it before too long. The main reason for doing this, IMO, would be to start our golden age. I am not advocating this path forward, just making note of it. I agree that it will be quite some time before we could take on the Mongols. We need infrastructure!

    Re Iron connection: we have two sources of Iron in our territory and, if you are worried about it, leaving one unconnected should be plenty. If it were just upto me I would hook up both and not feel bad if one dissapeared. Trading Iron can be quite lucrative (once we have the ability). The iron that is connected is in Cadiz (a first ring city), and the additional two trade is very nice. Finally, I believe that once an Iron has been hooked up pillaging the road doesn't do any good.
     
  8. Speaker

    Speaker Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,097
    Location:
    Section 1
    Guys, I think you'll have to skip me this time around. I have access to a computer, but it is a mac :rolleyes: and get this...it has no floppy drive :confused:, so I can't download the file and then play it on my laptop. I'll be moving into my own room on saturday and should be back to normal internet access then. Sorry!
     
  9. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    18,437
    250 BC - I look at Leptis Magna building the fp without a courthouse. However, after playing with the time to rush the courthouse it doesn't look like it will make much of a difference.

    I rush the harbor in Rusicade, as there are 3 potential civs to trade luxuries with via a harbor. In addition, another wines will connect in 1 turn. I switch Leptis Minor to courthouse at 50% corrupt.

    :confused: This is deity? The German people are impressed by our cultural achievements?
    (I) Germany / India sign a peace treaty.
    Germany / Korea sign a peace treaty.

    230 BC - I ship Korea our only gems, and get spices and $40 back for the trouble. Every penny helps, and a couple more like this will pay for the harbor rush.
    If India would build a port, we could trade them iron - a very profitable resource.

    210 BC - I don't understand how, but we can irrigate that flood plain [dance]
    Nora will not be a dry city. It looks like the river comes to that point of 3 mountains.

    190 BC - Our number 1 priority is to increase revenue to help with the tech race later on. A courthouse in Leptis minor should pay for itself soon enough.
    (I) Not as much as I would have liked - courthouse is even in revenue, but the extra shield will help.

    170 BC - (I) Persia begins Leo's, the tech continues to move forward.

    150 BC - It is barely worth the bother, so I pass on Gems to Mongols for Dyes and $9. I will wait to see if they get some more cash.

    110 BC - Russia is really screwed for tech - they just learned literature.
    (I) Germany completes the Great Library.

    90 BC - The mined hill pays off, and fp now due in 23 turns.

    50 BC - GACK - The Mongols aggressively settled by our second wines city. I immediately rush a temple out of paranoia.

    Summary - I didn't mention it in my reports, but I did trade maps every turn.

    The Vikings still don't have Engineering, but will that last 14 turns?

    The bad news - very few civs want our luxuries.
    The good news - cash flow has improved a lot.


    LKendter
    Reagan (currently playing)
    Sirian (on deck)
    Gothmog
    Speaker

    Remember, 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK38-50BC.zip
     
  10. Dragoten

    Dragoten Dragon Tamer

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2002
    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Somewhere
    I am a Simpsons fan....lets here some of your lines :)
     
  11. Reagan

    Reagan Remember Our Troops

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    Houston
    Got it. I should be able to play and post tonight.
     
  12. Gothmog

    Gothmog Dread Enforcer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,352
    Germany has been at war the whole game. Now that that they are at peace the Diety bonus will kick in for them (re culture). They should have libraries everywhere soon enough.

    For a desert to be a flood plane it must be up against a river. There is no way to see it but it must indeed be between the mountains. I only noticed it because the game picked it as the first tile to work for Nora.

    Oh and regan, I am no huge Simpsons fan but I did watch it long ago. Feel free to add some humor to your posts. From your earlier attempts I see that your humor is dry and subtle, much like my own.
     
  13. Reagan

    Reagan Remember Our Troops

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    Houston
    Turn 0: Reset some cities from marketplaces to aqueducts (including 1.5 ring Sabratha, which was at size 6), as they would hit size 6 around the same time the markets finished and would have several turns of lost growth potential.

    Early turns: I conduct WM trading each round. It's amusing that 100% of Russia's treasury is being spent on our map. Popped a Worker from Carthage and mined a couple more tiles to allow two-turn NuMes. Added a lawn to the Palace. Turned Utica into our stable for Horsemen training. We might want to start building Horsemen for a Knight upgrade soon.

    Middle turns: The Jerk extorted 54gp+WM. Mongols completed Sistine. Persia cascaded to Sun Tzu and Leo’s. Uh oh! It’s not like they weren’t already crushing everyone in culture and leading the tech charge.

    Late turns: The aggressive Mongol city by Hadrum is rubble. I started a Settler there to fill-in if you want, Sirian. If not, swapping to a courthouse would be my suggestion. There is a major Mongol SoD (hopefully) headed towards the German front. During a diplomacy session, Bis (who has been at war pretty much the whole game) confided to me: “I’m a rage-aholic. I just can’t live without rage-ahol.” The SoD should help take care of his problem one way or the other.

    Going forward: I saved our money so we can go on a tech buying spree after Engineering is discovered. The backwards Vikes still don’t have it, either. Rushing the Leptis Minor acqueduct might be useful, because it is ready to grow another point but is stuck at 6. Persia is at least to Astronomy now. The NuMes on the roads are headed towards the east in case the Mongols are getting any ideas about attacking us (although, if they do, we are SO screwed). If we train a group of vertically challenged mercenaries, would they be MiniMes? The lumberjacks by Hadrum will be done in three and two turns, respectively, so watch the shield allocation/building choice there.

    Have fun, Sirian.

    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK38150AD.zip
     
  14. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    18,437
    LKendter
    Reagan
    Sirian (currently playing)
    Gothmog (on deck)
    Speaker

    Remember, 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
     
  15. Sirian

    Sirian Designer, Mohawk Games

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    IT 150AD: Rush courthouse at eastern wines. Swap cities with more than 15% corruption to courthouses. Swap some projects to library so we can get 1000yr bonus. If not now, then pretty much never. We have to play from behind either way. It's easier to make up a commerce deficit than a cultural one. A little cultural prowess goes a long way at the diplomatic table, while a complete lack of refinement is only safe if you conduct all your deals at the business end of a sword.

    Early: Rush Library in the desert. We're committed to aggressive cultural struggle here, now's the time to make a strong move. I also start some more barracks. Mongol SoDs are so huge, I turn off animation of friendly AI's.

    Middle: Carthage, Hippo and L Minor all complete libraries. Utica is also working on a library. I keep the market going at Sabratha, though. Sadly, Vikings learn Engineering two turns before the tech comes in. We're left in the dust. I buy Feudal from India, still no deals possible. I buy Theology, including for some gpt, but Vikings and everyone else but Russia has Education. I go ahead and buy that, too. All three purchases @7th. We're broke and down to ~35gpt income left, not enough for any more tech at this time. Only Persia and Korea have Astronomy. I'll try to get that once the FP completes, and trade it for two or three other techs.

    Oh, and Mongolia signed Russia to alliance vs Germany. Will Russia fold to Germany, or do they have enough to hold on and serve as puppet strings for Temujin. Heh.

    Late: Mongols start to bring infantry and then Keshiks to the battle. Germany has done better than I expected, with their foolhardy attacking of Mongol SoDs in the mountains. Still, the Mongols got some, too, losing three vet swords in a row to one defending longbow, and their SoD reinforcements have finally petered out. Apparently humans aren't the only ones to see really incredible streaks on the combat rolls. Germany actually held the front stable for eight turns, despite being outgunned, but those Keshiks in the mountains are something fierce to watch. Germany's knights are in trouble in this terrain. Once Keshiks arrived, German lines collapsed almost instantly. Moscow falls before the end of my round.

    The FP completed, and the same turn, India and then Mongolia acquired Astronomy. I bought from India @5th for more than we could have afforded prior to the FP, then traded to Germany for Invention and to Scandinavia for Gunpowder. We have two saltpeter in our territory, neither connected, and we are only a couple of techs behind the main pack of AI's, though quite a few behind Persia. One salt is outside anybody's city radius in our territory which the Koreans could culturally wrest from us as a remote possibility. Korea is the second strongest world power now, economically. Germany and Mongols have been fighting for too long and both are slipping.

    India still does not have a harbor. If they should ever build one, we might be able to trade them wines and most of our remaining GPT for Navigation or other tech not known by all, and trade that to Vikings and Germans for stuff like Chivalry, etc. I paid big to catch us up to where we could manage multiple trades. I got one for us, but we'll need more such to keep up. Clearly Persia is the main powerhouse, and we cannot let them run away with the game. They could conceivably win by culture as they are more than twice the total of any civ except Korea. They have SunTzu also.

    I weaned us off the 20% lux tax and went to paying for luxury imports instead. Saved us a few gpt and gets us into positive trade relations with all the major powers, the better for us to fly under the radar a bit longer.

    In other news, Korea is on the warpath. They have moved military units on a sneak-attack beeline into our territory in the east. I think we are the likely target, thanks to pissing them off with cultural pressure at Paegam, but it is possible that they are instead heading for Russia or Mongolia. We NEED their spices for another two turns until our main cathedrals are finished, plus no sense forcing the issue if it turns out they are targetting someone else. They are definitely sneak-attacking SOMEONE, though, so be wary. We're in no position to fight, although we have enough to defend vs any initial sorties, judging by the sorry stack they've sent so far. I pushed infra my whole round, but we have strong cities ready to crank units and quickly, if need be. Carthage is up to 20 spt, that's a catapult in one turn or infantry in two. Utica needs one more mine to produce a nume every two turns. Theveste is a town that got a barracks on my turn, can crank some numes after one more turn. Vet units can now be cashrushed at eastern wines, because I also built a barracks there.

    I doubt we want to stick with lone scientist on Printing Press. Democracy or Nationism are the only techs worth waiting 40 turns on at this stage of a deity game -- optional, and also overpriced by the AI's. Then again, you never know, so I went ahead and ran it. The island has to run a specialist, might as well be a scientist just in case.

    Paegam's borders also expanded right after I built the library in Nora, so I believe they'd be stronger there now if I hadn't done that. The spear in the desert is a settler pair, though, so if Korea DOES attack us, we can pick up some slaves. In any event, I pushed the pendulum far in the infrastructure direction, it may need to swing back to military now. I was doing all I could to improve our income rate short of completely ignoring culture to speed up more markets. What can't wait, shouldn't wait. If we sat on the tech backburner too much longer, we'd have had to pay for every single tech. We gambled on the engineering and lost by just two turns, but having rushed courthouses and temples earlier has us in better position now anyway.


    - Sirian
     
  16. Sirian

    Sirian Designer, Mohawk Games

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,654
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Snapshot of FP completion:



    Here's the save file: LK38 - 300AD


    - Sirian
     
  17. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    18,437
    LKendter
    Reagan
    Sirian
    Gothmog (currently playing)
    Speaker (on deck)

    Remember, 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.



    This is so much better then LK36 for keeping up with tech. :)
     
  18. Rowain deWolf

    Rowain deWolf King

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    813
    Location:
    Vienna/Austria
    No wonder with twice as many Cities :lol:

    OTOH Sharing a Continent with the Mongols who will be soon out of other Victims this could get interesting.

    Good Luck

    Rowain
     
  19. Gothmog

    Gothmog Dread Enforcer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,352
    'Got it'

    I'll be focusing on shoring up our defenses on my turns. If Korea does attack us it shouldn't be too bad (although I can't see what units the do have on our continent). The AI is not famous for efficient battles involving a water passage. Plus we will get our GA and that should help get us over the edge. Also I would love to take Paegam from them. Now that we know there is water on that side of the mountain Paegam is a great 2nd ring city on the far side of the FP. It could be a problem if the mongols smell blood in the water and come for us too (like a big big problem). In fact it might be worth trying to sign them up against Korea (I have no idea if we could afford it), that would give Korea another target in the south (Moscow) and ensure no dogpile.

    Note that we also are putting cultural pressure on Korea at Kaesong.

    What ever happened to that settler/spear pair that was leaving Paegam on the end of my last turns? (reagan?)
     
  20. Reagan

    Reagan Remember Our Troops

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    Houston
    The settler/spear combo founded Paegam immediately after your turn, as reported in my turn report ("Korea settled the cows.").
     

Share This Page