LK41 - Korea, Deity, Space Race

Inherited turn:

Got some :smoke: to fix here. Seoul can achieve the magic +5 food/turn threshold, but isn't set to do so. Folks, ya gotta take advantage of such situations to win on Deity.

Second, Pyongyang needs some irrigation BADLY. So does Wonson - why in the world is a worker wasting time chopping a forest there when it could be irrigating and getting the city to grow? PYONGYANG is the one that wants forests chopped - the fur tiles in particular, since the extra shield on a forest is lost to despotism.

I will let Pyongyang's temple finish, since that'll bring the forest-game and two other 2-food tiles within radius. Walls was also a mistake in Pyongyang. Never waste shields on walls until a war actually starts.

Pusan does not need a temple - it's got plenty of food tiles on land, it doesn't need the whales. Changed to granary, since this city will have a lot of food once irrigation gets over to the wines - this city will be a worker factory.

Diplo check: we gain about 80 gold by selling around our world map.

=====

Well, nothing worth reporting happened. Seoul built 5 workers on my turn. These workers need to irrigate thus: through the two furs tiles, through Pyongyang, through Pyongyang's game tile, and into the wines at Pusan. The chop of the second furs forest will make Pyongyang's granary complete before it grows. Wonsan also needs lots of irrigation on its plains. Have this city build a library when that becomes available; expanding borders will net it a second flood plains tile.

Seoul could be swapped to a settler, if we want to try claiming one more patch of jungle. Or it could keep cranking workers - we want at least 18-20 total, even if we don't get any more land.

We are running on cardboard cutouts vs Rome, but if they don't stir up anything I don't think we will for a while. If they do declare war on us, what we'll need is bunches of Catapults to fend off incoming units.

Don't get any ideas about attacking Rome anytime soon. They're larger than us, have a Deity production advantage, and any war will launch them into Golden Age. But, being Rome, they've built next to no workers, and will fall behind in time. But only in time.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-1250bc.zip
 
Oh right, the patch... Very sorry. And your example from TH3 seems to disprove my idea.
Sorry for the threadjack, I'll stop now, and hide in a corner in shame...
 
1250 BC (pre-turn) - I hate to waste 2 shields, but Wonsan needs another worker to get growing. I won't deny the need for workers, but I really wish I had a settler heading toward jungle instead. I switch Seoul to settler, but it is probably to late. Namp'o is the best fp choice, so I would really like another city by it.

1125 BC - I purchase CoL from Egypt for $263, and we are closer to Republic. I send CoL, $18, and $1/turn to Arabia and get Horseback riding and wm. We get a wm valued around $150 for just $38.

1100 BC - ARGGGGG - Egypt drops a city in the jungle zone that I was hoping to claim.


Summary - This was a very quite set of turns. Something I like early on with Deity.

LKendter (on deck)
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog
T-hawk (currently playing)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/LK41-1000BC.zip
 
LKendter
Carbon_Copy (currently playing)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Gothmog
T-hawk
 
T-hawk - I did have Soul at 5 food/turn for some of my turn. But when building a settler there is no reason to have it at 5 food when it will be at size six at completion as far as I can see. I guess I should have put it back there the turn after the settler was built but I wanted another defender first (7spt=good).

I decided to chop the tree at Wonsan to get the Dyes online and get the Granary built. Pyongyang indeed needs irrigation and to chop the forest with the furs but I decided to mine the grassland near Chengu first because I would have had to bring the water up from Seoul delaying the only worker I had at the beginning of my turn.

Thank you for the advice and please keep it coming, I just thought I'd state my reasoning.

I'm actually surprized that Rome hasn't declared war on us yet, or at least asked for tribute.
 
Continuing the discussion...

Seoul is on fresh water, so it can reach size 7. Any food that accumulates in the box after a city reaches 7 is lost when the city shrinks. Therefore, the perfect timing for a settler is to have it complete on the turn the city reaches size 7. Only if the city will reach 7 more than one full turn before completing the settler (or worker) is delaying growth justified.

When I inherited the game, Seoul was size 4 and building a spearman. No excuse for delaying the city's growth there. :)

Chopping the tree at Wonsan was a waste of time, I think. Better to just build the road through the forest to connect the city and get the dyes. Wonsan had an unimproved flood plain within range. Improving a flood plain cuts a city's growth time from 10 turns to 7 turns -- that's about the most efficient use of worker labor there is under despotism. In the early game, population is everything. Get that population up and the shields will follow. Get Wonsan to grow twice in 14 turns instead of 20 turns, and you pick up more than 10 shields from extra population right there.

And if you don't have enough workers at the beginning of your turn - build more! :)
 
Dope, I make the fresh water mistake alot. Hopefully I will remember that in the future. I would have built more workers but all our cities were currently occupied and I wanted a settler from Seoul. I did start them in our new cities but they didn't finish during my turn. I guess I should have irrigated the FP near Wonsan too, I have a habit of not wanting to move my workers very far without doing something with them. Again, thanks for the well reasoned advice.
 
1000 (0) - Checking around, Rome doesn't have any more iron than we do (that being none, Caesar is foiled yet again), and furthermore does not yet have any horses connected (though they'll get some at Pompeii and Veii if they bother expanding borders). If it were any other difficulty level, war with Cleo for her iron then Caesar for his land would seal this one for us before the medieval era, but this isn't just any difficulty...

Techwise, the three AIs are all up Map Making, Philosophy, and Construction on us, which means that they are dangerously close to pulling into the next Age. With us just over halfway on our 40 turn polytheism gambit, I have just enough time to buy a tech, then have the payments expire in time to buy Philosophy and start another 40 turns on Republic. The tech to go for will be Map Making. I buy Map Making from Cleo for 11 gpt and 105g (@4th, and she offered marginally better than anybody else).

975 (1) - Nothing much going on.

950 (2) - Nothing much.

925 (3) - P'yongyang finishes barracks, starts a spearman. Real close to the upkeep limit.

900 (4) - Real busy IBT. Arabs complete the Great Lighthouse in Damascus, Egypt completes the Great Wall somewhere, all three AIs begin on the Great Library, Egypt establishes an embassy. Namp'o finishes worker, starts temple, Seoul finishes worker, starts temple. We hit the troop upkeep limit with those two workers, I will disband the two warriors we have stranded before we build any more units. Since a spearman will complete next turn, I disband the one near Buto, the Romans marched two warriors up to Fez IBT and I want to see what happens before I nix the other one.

875 (5) - Abu extorts 20g and a territory map, the Romans declare war on the Arabs, suiciding both of the warriors that I saw approach Fez (which was defended by a spearman). Cleo and Caesar have Currency, but Abu does not. The borders on Fez expand, so rather than move the warrior, I just disband him, too.

850 (6) - Not much.

825 (7) - Not much.

800 (8) - Not much.

775 (9) - Land route established with Rome. Selling our only horse and our spare wine will get us Currency+ (which we can then trade to Abu for the rest of the tech we lack), but I'll leave that option for the next leader. Considering that Rome will be able to get a horse online with Veii's borders expanding, this may be something that we'll want to do.

750 (10) - Well, I messed up. I didn't notice a spot where we could have mostly safely put our settler on the west coast of our continent out of cultural reach of an egyptian city and in cultural battle range with Rome (on the bonus grassland), but I didn't see it until about turn 5 and it turns out I was about three turns too late in getting the settler pair out, there's an Egyptian pair almost there already. Might as well move it back to Namp'o.

We are exactly at the upkeep limit, 28 units (16 of these workers, so if we put 2 MP in all of them we'll have to pay for two of them).

I would suggest that we sell our only horse to Caesar, considering that we won't get another chance to do something like this again as border expansions in his cities will bring his own native horses online probably within the next 5-10 turns if Caesar is smart (which he isn't, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). We can also sell him our spare wine. We can broker Currency to Arabia, so I'd probably go for that from Rome.

9 turns from Polytheism, we will want to go for Republic after that one completes.

Sorry for dropping the ball with that settler :sad: .

Save is here: 750 BC
 
LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve (currently playing)
Gothmog (on deck)
T-hawk

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
 
(0) 750BC
P'yongyang would benefit more from a courthouse than a horseman right now, as it's losing 2 gold and 2 shields per turn. I make the switch there.
I also decide that we can do without horses for 20 turns.
Horses go to Rome in exchange for Currency + 20 gold.
Currency goes to Arabia for Literature + Philosophy + 10 gold.
No-one will trade Construction yet.

(1) 730BC
Wonsan reaches size 6. I would like to set it to max shields and get a more usable 8 shields/turn, but instead leave it configured for max growth.
150 gold + 15/turn gets us to "doubtful" on construction.
Seoul builds temple, starts marketplace.

(2) 710BC
Construction can be bought from the Romans, but I will hold off in the hope that no-one discovers Polytheism in the next 7 turns.
Wonsan borders expand. A galley pops out of Cheju, and a harbor is started.

(3) 690BC
P'yongyang hits size 6 and is put on max shields to reach the magic 10 shields/turn.

(4) 670BC
Our galley reaches the coast to the East of Pusan - and spies coastline across the sea that is reachable.
The Republic has been shopped around. I sure hope that Polytheism isn't next.
Arabia and Egypt are annoyed with us - I guess they revolted to Republic and no longer like our despotic regime.
Our warrior/settler pair reach the comparative safety of Namp'o, to be used if cities are razed during a war.
Pusan builds it's granary and starts a temple to get the other two wines inside our borders.

(5) 650BC
Our galley makes it across the sea, only to find that the Romans got there first.
Wonsan builds barracks, starts marketplace.

(6) 630BC
A road is completed between Namp'o and the rest of our empire. We now have a fourth luxury, spices.
P'yongyang builds it's courthouse, starts marketplace. This should be changed to aquaduct once constriction is purchased.

(7) 610BC
I curse my rotten luck, as Egypt and Arabia research Polytheism one turn before we get it.
We learn Polytheism, and switch to 40 turn research on Republic.

(8) 590BC
My only hope here is that Rome doesn't have Polytheism. I check the Foreign Advisor and... he hasn't got it!
Even with Polytheism + wines + 283 gold + 19/turn, I cannot quite afford Republic. However, Polytheism + wines + 220 gold buys the almost-as-extortionately-priced Construction.
This move puts us into the Middle Ages, where we receive Monotheism as our free tech.
For Monotheism I get The Republic + 226 gold from Rome, cleaning out their treasury.
Egypt and Arabia both suffer from poverty right now, so I keep tabs on both of them so that I can clean out their treasuries before Rome can sell Monotheism to them.
We have tech parity with all known civs, and more money.

(9) 570BC
Korea is revolting. Wonsan and Seoul hire taxmen, otherwise everything looks good. We're losing 9 gold/turn, but with 289 gold in the treasury, that won't be a problem.
We draw only 2 turns of anarchy. Woohoo!!
Arabia completes the Great Library in Mecca.

(10) 550BC
Nothing much to report on my last turn.
I switched P'yongyang to an aquaduct so that it can resume growth.

Tech-wise, we are at parity with all known civs. It appears that Rome sold off Monotheism to everyone else at bargain basement prices.
There is a settler in Namp'o waiting to be used if any cities get razed near us.
It's up to the next leader to decide if we continue the quiet build I've been doing, or to try some "pointy stick" research.

...And the save - LK41 - 550BC
 
LK41_002.jpg
 
LKendter
Carbon_Copy
Arizona_Steve
Gothmog (currently playing)
T-hawk (on deck)

Remember, up to 10 turns per round from now on - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

======================

We get Republic earlier then expect with just 2 turns of Anarchy [dance]
 
Nothing like a good war on distant soil to make Caesar forget to build his temples, I can't believe that none of his borders expanded on your turn (especially at Veii, not only his second city but a native site of horses already roaded up and waiting for borders to expand). When I checked the histogram, we were actually more or less on par with Caesar for culture (and maybe are ahead by now?), unless he's got flip suppressors in Pompeii that he hasn't sent to Arabia, we actually stand a good chance of flipping that city to us. It's closer to Seoul than it is to Rome, 5 tiles versus 7, and we control 5 of its 21 city tiles at the moment, so assuming we are close to cultural parity with Rome, anyone who knows the formula off the top of their head care to calculate our chances?

Hmm...I managed to find the formula in the FAQ thread, and plugging in the numbers and guesstimating what I don't know, it looks like the likelihood is: [(5- # of Garrison units) * 7/5] % We have 5 tiles of Pompeii's under our control, we have never held the city, the ratio of our civ-wide culture is roughly equal and Rome is not in anarchy (so the Cc H and Cte/Cty terms work out to roughly 1), and Pompeii is closer to Seoul than Rome 5 tiles to 7. If I calculated the distance factor right (as just being a ratio of distances between the two capitals in question), then if they have only 2 defenders in Pompeii the flip risk for them is about 4%-5% and they'll need 5 MPs to prevent a flip completely. Once Caesar gets off his butt and builds a temple there, however, we will only control 2 of Pompeii's 21 tiles so he'd only need two units to completely prevent a flip once the borders expand.
 
'I got it' will try to play tonight.

Yesss, a two turn anarchy.

On the culture flip possibilities - the base chance of a flip is 0.05% per turn. That is to say that the D factor is 2000 times the distance ratio. So the per turn chance is smaller (.2% - .25% per turn). Also, I believe the distances are calculated as the crow flies (for example our distance to Pompeii is (5^2 + 1^2)^0.5 = 5.1), that doesn't make a real difference in this case but just thought I'd mention it.
 
Preturn - everything looks spotless. I hire a scientist to replace a taxman though.

Early turns: We become a republic and are making 47gpt. MM seoul for growth in 2, market still in 3. The arabs found a city on the island, that makes one for each of our friends, how nice! Egypt starts the Hanging Gardens. Seoul finishes market, starts on 'racks. Swap Hyangsan and Chenju to aquaducts. Sell map around, get 13 gold + TM.

Middle turns: MM Seoul to produce 'racks w/no waste. Seoul starts on spear. Rome and Arabia start on HG.

Late turns: Lux to 10%, Hyang starts on worker. Egypt starts on Sun Tzu - they have a monopoly on Feud. On my last turn the Horse deal with Rome expires, the Palace expands and I sight a reachable bit of land with our Galley! I wake our settler and start him north.

Not much to say, was pretty quiet on my rounds. Here's an image...

lk41_350bc.jpg


and the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41_350bc.zip
 
Inherited turn:

Let's take a peek at the newly discovered land now rather than waiting 4 turns for our settler to get up there. I load a warrior onto the boat, which will unload on the island next turn.

Nam'po and Hyangsan swapped to libraries. We're scientific, let's use it instead of building the more expensive temples.

Oh, and stop mining the grasslands now. We're in Republic! We need to get those populations up to have any kind of decent economy. Frankly, I have no idea how we're still keeping up even now. We don't even have enough cities to build the Forbidden Palace!

Oh, that's how - Arabia and Rome are at war. Egypt is running away with things, though.

=====

In 190 BC, Rome and Arabia have both acquired Feudalism and Engineering. We pay Abu Wines + 590 gold for the former. Egypt has Chivalry already, as I expected.

The island Gothmog glimpsed turned out to be Rome's already. But there's a second island south of there, that's now ours. That island is actually big enough for two cities; I leave it to the next leader to get another settler over there.

I built a handful of horsemen that are hanging out in Pyongyang. If we can somehow get Chivalry and iron (Egypt has both for sale at exorbitant prices), we can take some war to Rome. 10-12 knights should get us Pompeii, Viroconium, and maybe Cumae. We don't have to do this, though; it's up for group discussion.

Whatever you do, KEEP THOSE POPULATIONS GROWING! Cheju in particular needs lots more irrigation. Pusan doesn't; the wines provide it enough food. Every city should reach at least +5 food surplus; that's growth every 4 turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/lk41-150bc.zip
 
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