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LK80 - Science Experiment, Carthage, Deity

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by LKendter, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    17,712
    I am really questioning the standard deity model of buying techs. I won't bore you with all of the details beyond a simple example: In LK79 we can research a tech for $680, but can't buy it for $815. I want to try a game with what I think may be a better tech model.


    Difficulty = Deity
    Civilization = Carthage
    Pangaea, 60%, warm, wet, 5 million
    No barbs
    World Size = Standard

    Signed up:
    LKendter
    Open slot
    Open slot
    Open slot
    Open slot

    Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

    Variant rules:
    Variant rules:
    1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow.
    We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

    2) We may not research at negative if that will leave us less then $100 in cash.

    3) We may not build the GL. We must raze the GL city. The raze rule expires when we own education.

    4) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

    5) Minimum research is not allowed.

    6) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

    7) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

    8) Research is prohibited on optional techs except the following specific techs: Literature, Republic, Military Tradition, Nationalism, and Sanitation.

    9) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.
    Signup requirements: A previous win at deity. This will be harder then average deity.

    ===========================================

    The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

    RoP Rape - if you have to ask...

    RoP Abuse that includes things such as irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders, denying resources with a RoP, putting a unit to block a land bridge, etc.

    Scout resource denial - parking a scout on a resource, as the AI won't ask scouts to leave. The same scenario also applies to workers.

    False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end).

    The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

    Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

    Resources disconnect / connect exploit - I consider most resource tactics fine. Delaying to hook a resource, trading it away etc is fine. The exploit is to do this every turn. Build a stack of horses, connect saltpeter, upgrade to cavalry, and disconnect.

    Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

    Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a large amount of troops to another land mass.


    Standard LK house rules:
    1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.
    2) No worker purchases during the first 50 turns to avoid civ crippling.
    3) Declaring war / demanding leave solely for the purpose of getting out of trade deals. This includes nonsense spying simply to force a war. Stealing techs is fine.
    4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.
    5) Our trading reputation is golden - please respect it.
    6) Complete your turn. It is frustrating to get a 1/2 completed turn.
    7) Once you post a skip notice it is irrevocable.
    8) If I skip a player to due a missed got it, or over due turn the turn is invalid if the next player has posted a got it.
     
  2. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    4,596
    Are you allowed to trade techs for techs?

    What do you mean by "50% tech cost"? It is what gold you pay, or plus any other valuable goods like resources or techs?

    What if you've got GL? Still full research? What about ToE?
     
  3. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    17,712
    I think my revised rules cover your questions. Let me know if you still have questions. I would prefer to get the rules lawyering out of the way now.


    Variant rules:
    1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow. We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.
    2) We may not build the GL, and can't take must destroy the GL if we take the city with it.
    3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.
    5) Minimum research is not allowed.
    6) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty.
    7) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.
    8) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

    Signup requirements: A previous win at deity. This will be harder then average deity.
     
  4. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

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    OK, please sign me up then. :)
     
  5. hotrod0823

    hotrod0823 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2001
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    Location:
    Connecticut
    Sounds interesting. Sign me up
     
  6. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
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    Signed up:
    LKendter
    microbe
    hotrod0823
    Open slot
    Open slot
     
  7. el_filet

    el_filet Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    CH (GMT+1)
    exactly the kind of game i like. i always do most of my research myself, but i don't have that required deity win :cry:

    i really should take the time to get over with that.

    @microbe: does that game cancel your self research game? (believe me when i say at emperor it will be a piece of cake)
     
  8. Kaiser_Berger

    Kaiser_Berger Terran Emporer

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2002
    Messages:
    1,478
    Location:
    UW-Stevens Point
    Ahhh what the hay, I'll join.
     
  9. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
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    Signed up:
    LKendter
    microbe
    hotrod0823
    Kaiser_Berger
    Open slot
     
  10. Greebley

    Greebley Chieftain Supporter

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    Location:
    Boston Area, MA
    I would like to join if you don't mind me missing the start until the 30th.

    I understand if you don't want someone who would miss the start.

    I have been wondering this myself (the validity of self research)
     
  11. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
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    Signed up:
    LKendter
    microbe
    hotrod0823
    Kaiser_Berger
    Greebley (vacation Nov 20 to Nov 30)

    I will start this one tonight.
     
  12. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

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    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
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    I have a question about tech cost again: how do you calculate the cost for buying and for self-research, considering the benefit of libraries, markets, etc?

    For example, say you have one city and are producing raw gold at 40. You have a market and bank but not library. So 100% sci gives 40, and 100% tax gives 80. Lux is 0 and no other cost for simplification.

    Now say you can self-research a tech in 20 turns at 100% (800 beakers) without any surplus, and buy a tech with 40gpt for 20 turns (800 gold). If you calculate cost this way by absolute value, they are the same cost.

    However, buying is clearly better, as you can buy two such techs with 100% tax in 20 turns. Effectively it makes cost of buying half of self-research.
     
  13. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

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    6) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost.

    I thought the above covered your issue. The self-research cost is 800, so we would have to buy at 400 or less. I have reworded again and hope this ends the rules questions. It your example our civ screwed up as libraries should be built long before banks.

    The key is to remember the variant goal - I don't want a tech whoring game. #8 is the key rule to remember.

    =================================

    Variant rules:
    1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow. We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.
    2) We may not build the GL, and can't take must destroy the GL if we take the city with it.
    3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.
    5) Minimum research is not allowed.
    6) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max.
    7) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.
    8) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.
     
  14. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

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    4000 BC
    I see no reason not to settle where we are.


    3400 BC
    (IT) Pottery is completed, and our next research project is Math. This has the best chance of the AI not researching it and to give us trading material.


    3000 BC
    We finally have a first contact situation with the Ottomans. I ship them Alphabet, and get Warrior Code and $10. As usual, Pottery is worthless in trade.


    2900 BC
    Our southern warrior makes contact with the Iroquois. We score a major success as we ship them Masonry to get Burial and Bronze Working. They have $0, so they have met another civ.


    2850 BC
    We are getting plenty of contacts as we have just met Babylon. No trades are possible.


    2550 BC
    (IT) I watch a Babylonian spear pillage an Ottoman tile. :D


    2430 BC
    Utica is formed and we have our first luxury of Silks on-line.

    ==========================

    Summary:
    It is 10 turns to Math, and no AI has it yet. The search is still one for the rest of the contacts.

    Signed up:
    LKendter
    Microbe (currently playing)
    hotrod0823 (on deck)
    Kaiser_Berger
    Greebley (vacation Nov 20 to Nov 30)

    Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK80-2150BC.zip
     
  15. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

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    Preturn: Math in 10 turns and Writing already known by Iros.

    1790BC: We get Math, but at the same turn so do Ottomans and Iroquois. :(

    Buy Writing from Babylon with 4gpt+14g.
    Writing+1gpt gets us Ironworking from Ottomans. We have iron just outside Carthage!

    I start min on Currency for now. AI probably will go for Map Making and Philosophy first, and they usually are slow at Currency.

    Note: I built a rax in our capital, and switched Utica to granary. We probably want to expand toward the gems. The scouting warrior might want to go back to north.
     
  16. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

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  17. hotrod0823

    hotrod0823 Chieftain

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    :nono:

    got it
     
  18. microbe

    microbe Cascaded Mansion

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    Oops, only one turn though, and it will still take 50 turns anyway.
     
  19. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    Sweden
    Ack, I would have liked this one. Very well, good luck to you people.
    I think it is viable to research. ( Or at least I hope... )

    Grimjack
     
  20. Greebley

    Greebley Chieftain Supporter

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    Boston Area, MA
    I would go for Literature. It is the tech we are most likely to get first and we need those Libraries - certainly much more than markets.
     

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