Lo5 01 - The Puppetmaster

[LawOfFives]

I'd like to start a succession game, my first one ever. Hope the variant idea draws some interest!

The variant: The game must be won not by us, but by the first civilization we meet (as defined by their appearance in the Shift-D list). If it's possible for two or more civilizations to enter the list at the same time, then I say we get to choose our puppet in the case of such a tie.

Domination and Conquest victories disallowed (too easy to just go ahead play it like a normal game, gifting our puppet all our cities at the end).

UN victory allowed, but no building the UN allowed, otherwise once again it seems too similar to a normal game (build UN, gift cities, hold vote).

The level: Monarch to Demigod, my preference is Emperor.
The version: C3C 1.22; I much prefer it to Vanilla
The map size: Standard preferred, but open to ideas
The geography and climate: Mild preference for all middle settings, but open to suggestions

Hope somebody wants to give this a go!

Lo5

 

[frrosch]

I'd really like to try this one, it would also be the first succession game for me.

The variant sounds interesting but quite difficult, so I would prefer Monarch or Emperor.

I think there are some things to talk about before starting:

-Are we allowed to give our puppet technologies, gold, cities, workers or whatever as gifts?

-if me meet two civs at the same time (=the same turn), do we have to choose the puppet as soon as we meet them or can we wait to see which one will become stronger?


Anyways, I'm on a festival from tomorrow to monday, so I can't post here.

 

[LawOfFives]

I'd really like to try this one, it would also be the first succession game for me.

The variant sounds interesting but quite difficult, so I would prefer Monarch or Emperor.

I would also prefer Emperor max (emperor is what I normally play); I just wanted not to drive away people who prefer a higher difficulty, as long as it's not too far "from me."

I'm a little worried that if we played Monarch, I'd forget we were doing so and count on the second citizen being unhappy. More generally, it would just feel "weird" to me after playing Emperor for so long. Would Emperor be OK with you?

I think there are some things to talk about before starting:

I agree!

-Are we allowed to give our puppet technologies, gold, cities, workers or whatever as gifts?

Not just "allowed," but rather "very, very strongly encouraged!"

However, cities are a special case. Forbidding the gifting and trading of cities (I think cities can only be traded for peace, but even that would be forbidden) would make it reasonable to *not* remove the Conquest and Domination victories after all, which is cool! But it would make for a very different game. Perhaps a much more difficult one.

What's your opinion on that -- cith-gifting allowed and no domination/conquest/self-built UN, or city-gifting forbidden and no holds barred?

Note that there are ways around no-gifting, which I guess are reasonable to allow -- going to war with our puppet and letting it take our cities has a similar effect, as does going into an allied war with a third party and setting things in each city assault so that the city falls to the puppet, not us. But the first one sounds risky and the second one is tricky, so I think maybe these should be allowed even if we decide to ban city gifts.

-if me meet two civs at the same time (=the same turn), do we have to choose the puppet as soon as we meet them or can we wait to see which one will become stronger?

As soon as we meet them. No pussyfooting here.

Anyways, I'm on a festival from tomorrow to monday, so I can't post here.

Have fun! Things should take a little while to get rolling, so I don't think the delay until your return will be a problem.

Lo5

 

[frrosch]

I'm a little worried that if we played Monarch, I'd forget we were doing so and count on the second citizen being unhappy. More generally, it would just feel "weird" to me after playing Emperor for so long. Would Emperor be OK with you?

Emperor would be also fine with me, although I just played a few matches and won none of them.

Not just "allowed," but rather "very, very strongly encouraged!"

I thought about what I said afterwards and came to the same result

What's your opinion on that -- cith-gifting allowed and no domination/conquest/self-built UN, or city-gifting forbidden and no holds barred?

I think it's better to generally forbid city-gifting but allow all kinds of victories, letting us a bit more tactical range. The declaring war to puppet and letting them take our cities may not be the same because we probably had war weariness.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment: We tried this once, I think it was eldar05, but the game died out of lack of interest - a pity because it was fun and we had a decent shot at it, IMHO. The fact the SGOTM failed on SS condition might have been influenced (you know you like understatements ) by the 1CC - heck, 1 tile challenge India was facing. I believe this is very doable for all VC's but 20K or domination (unless on pangea for dom).

Misfortunately I haven't the slightest idea of just how much I'll be busy in the next months so I can't sign up now, but might tag along eventually if there are quarters for refugee idiots on your boat.

 

[TimBentley]

They had plenty of cities for hundreds of turns; I think the constant war with them was the primary problem. I guess they don't want to build spaceship parts while at war.

These games seem interesting; I'll join. Forbidding city gifts sounds good. Nothing to add regarding anything else.

 

[LawOfFives]

Great to see interest is building!

I noticed that this thread name breaks the standard for succession-game thread names -- that it should start with a preferred abbreviation to be used as the reference name of the succession game, like LoFive1 or Puppet. (I like Puppet better.) Is that fact worth starting a new thread over? Worth contacting a mod over?

Looks like there's a consensus for all victories open, no city gifting, and the more I think about that approach the more I like it, so let's go with that.

Anyone object to standard size, all standard setting, Restless barbarians? If not, I'll go with that.

As for the difficulty, much though it worries with me, my preference is for Emperor, so we'll use it unless we're short on players and there's a potential player who's really bothered by it.

How 'bout civs? How 'bout random rival civs, and the English for us? The Royal Family of our hardly-huge nation pulling the strings of world events from behind the scenes... that'll be nice from a roleplaying perspective, though there is the small disadvantage that the English kind of suck. But hey, nobody said this would be easy!

The fact the SGOTM failed on SS condition might have been influenced (you know you like understatements ) by the 1CC - heck, 1 tile challenge India was facing.

Now that's intriguing... one-*tile* challenge? What was *that* about?

I believe this is very doable for all VC's but 20K or domination (unless on pangea for dom).

Is there any way at all to give an AI civ a decent chance at overseas conquest? Probably not, huh?

Should we take Pangea (and drop the English idea) to counter that, or should we avoid cooking the map conditions in our favor and take the situation like a man?

* * * *

We'll need some luck at first -- if the civ we meet has crap land, they'll have a hard time becoming a superpower.

Which reminds me, since underuse and misuse of workers are among the AI's main sins, we'll want to beeline for Map Making and set up nearly-permanent ROP with our neighbor so we can pitch in a helping hand. Does anybody know if it's considered incitement of war if you change the improvement type in foreign territory? (It would be great if we could switch some of that useless despot grassland irrigation into mines instead.)

If we do go with the English, we can perhaps help our puppet get overseas contacts by going to war with the civ that we want them to be able to contact, then luring a galley of that civ over to the puppet. As soon as that's achieved, the war can be called off. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I think the constant war with them was the primary problem. I guess they don't want to build spaceship parts while at war.

Anybody know any tools to coax an AI *away* from wars with its neighbors reliably and in the long term?

e.

 

[soul_warrior]

will lurk as i will have limited time in the next 6 months or so.

same things B said...

 

[gmaharriet]

Now that's intriguing... one-*tile* challenge? What was *that* about?

lurker's comment: In SGOTM09 India started on a one-tile island, but the civ played was the Vikings. The challenge was coaxing India off the island to build the SS. Quoted here are the conditions pre-set in that game:

You start the game as a near neighbour of India. Following the pact you are at permanent war with Gandhi, and must remain so for the rest of the game. You are allowed no peace treaties with India. And India must win by space victory. All victory conditions are switched on except diplomatic, but the winning team will be the one that gets India to Alpha Centauri, and does it fastest.

This is NOT a sign-up.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment: To keep an AI away from war there needs to be an equilibrium of powers, or even better, they need to have the upper hand in their wars. For that they'll need to be given state of the art military techs ASAP. You could also consider lowest agression setting.

Getting RoP and working their tiles is a grand idea, too.

And our favorite granny answered about the indian 1TC

 

[pneuma]

If there is any space left, I'd love to join. This sounds very interesting

edit: Also, I can only do conquests or PTW

 

[LawOfFives]

In SGOTM09 India started on a one-tile island, but the civ played was the Vikings. The challenge was coaxing India off the island to build the SS. Quoted here are the conditions pre-set in that game:

You start the game as a near neighbour of India. Following the pact you are at permanent war with Gandhi, and must remain so for the rest of the game. You are allowed no peace treaties with India. And India must win by space victory. All victory conditions are switched on except diplomatic, but the winning team will be the one that gets India to Alpha Centauri, and does it fastest.

Well, it's hard to imagine a tougher puppetmastering situation than that one. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine that one being winnable, while the challenge I'm defining here is much, much easier, so maybe it will be. I want the game to be challenging and fun, not just challenging. ;-)

This is NOT a sign-up. [/delurk]

Aw, shucks.

Lo5

 

[LawOfFives]

I didn't set a roster size because I don't know what's a good one, though it seems most succession games have a starting roster of 5 to 8 people or so? I'll pretend they do.

Schedule:

As long as a fifth player joins in time, the first turnset will be on Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll be away over the weekend, as will one interested party, and Monday or both Monday and Tuesday will be needed for the final pre-game decision-making. If I don't hear any preferences on game settings by then, I'll go with the ones I outlined above.


Turnset size: 10 turns OK with everybody?


Roster and roll call:

Lo5 - "on deck", is what I think they call it...
Frrosch
TimBentley
pneuma
{mandatory free slot}
{optional free slot}
{optional free slot}
{optional free slot}

Lo5

 

[frrosch]

I'm back again, a bit tired but fine at all.

About the settings: I don't really care about climate, so the middle settings would be fine with me. Standard map is also fine, but I'd prefer pangaea or continents to archipelago.

About the civ: I don't really like seafaring civs, but if we play on archipelago it could be helpful. As we want to improve the puppets land as well, a industrial civ could be good. Maybe the chinese or the persians. Or the ottomans. Random civs for our rivals are fine.

 

[LawOfFives]

I've been quite selfish regarding other settings. I see no need to also push for England.

Anything but Pangea will make things difficult if our neighbor is ill-suited for a non-military victory, but I don't like cooking the map settings. OK, Continents but with a less sea-oriented nation.

I've played the Chinese so much -- as they're so awesome -- that I'm a bit bored of them. I've never really gotten the full potential out of the mighty Immortals, but with steamrollering our nearest neighbor being quite possibly against our best interests, the Persians are probably a bad idea. The Ottomans, on the other hand, will help us right in the midgame, when I suspect things will start to really get out of control. Good idea!

We still don't have a fifth player, but perhaps I shouldn't insist on it; one will surely come in any case.

A succession order that respects time zones would probably be better than the "first come, first served" order I wrote above. Frrosch, you and I are in the same time zone. I can receive and send saves only during working hours, however, as I don't have home internet access at the moment. Thus you should come before me, and maybe one other person should come between us two... well, it all depends on Tim's and pneuma's time zones and daily schedules, as well as yours.

Lo5

 

[TimBentley]

Just for the record, I have no settings preferences (or any preferences of what settings not to have haven't been suggested).

I found it interesting that both eldar04 and RBD19 (they only wanted the "little brother" to win by SS, which Persia did) were on emperor.

It could be seen from my and pneuma's locations that we are in the Central Time zone. Evenings usually are good.

 

[TheLoneMan]

If it would be at all possible, I would **love** to be included in this SG. I'm rather new to CFC (just look at my post count ), but I think this would be a good game to start on. I have internet access at all hours and I'm on Pacific Standard Time, but, for the purposes of this SG, let's say I'm on Central Standard Time, because I work odd hours and go to bed early.

 

[pneuma]

Continents + the ottomans would be great, and though school starts for me in a week, I'll be able to scrape out enough time for SGs every two days at very least. Put me wherever you want on the roster.

 

[LawOfFives]

Tim: Oh, wow. Bourbonnais. My father lives in Kempton, and I went to Cabery high school for half a year 20 years ago. (My father is an ex-hippie and migrated to the area because of a new-agey town named Stelle that you might have heard of, then stayed.)

It's disappointing to hear that my "new" idea is so old. :-/ Hopefully it'll still have some spice in it anyway. Maybe we can pull off a conquest win! Uh, loss! Whatever!

OK, Emperor, standard everything, ready, aim, fire!

Order, unless there are any objections:
Lo5
Frrosch
TheLoneMan
TimBentley
Pneuma

Will be delivering 10 moves' worth of Ottoman goodness tomorrow at 10 AM CET.

Lo5

 

[TheLoneMan]

Can't wait