Loading screen isn't long enough

[Gorbles]

What kind of loading times do you get? What's your hardware like?

 

[SupremacyKing2]

If anyone cares, I decided to measure the load times. For reference, I am playing BERT on a HP Pavilion 17 Notebook, running Windows 10, with an intel core i3 2.6 GHz, and 4 Gb RAM. The main load screen (the one with the seed ships in orbit) right before the main menu screen took 3 minutes and 42 seconds to load. The second load screen with the sponsor quote right before you land took 1 minute and 42 seconds to load.

I find the load times too long. Sometimes, I actually start to lose interest in playing by the time the game is ready. I would actually agree with Westwall on this one that the load times are a sign of poor coding. I don't get why a turn based strategy game should take that long to load and then the map can't even render fully when you scroll around the map. Perhaps a sign that the devs are trying to be cute with fancy looking maps and pretty graphics.

The long load times are one reason why I have been playing a lot of other games with faster load times because I can jump right in and play. I've actually been playing Starcraft II a lot recently. It loads in seconds on my laptop.

 

[Westwall]

Perhaps a sign that the devs are trying to be cute with fancy looking maps and pretty graphics.

The graphics are fine, but I wouldn't call them particularly fancy.

Certainly not enough to justify extended loading times or constant re-rendering even after the game is supposed to be done loading.

And I definitely don't think a game with graphics like this should be more demanding on your system than StarCraft II.

I've seen far better looking strategy games that don't require nearly this much loading, Endless Legend for instance.

WoW is also an example of what you can accomplish with good art direction and minimal bloat.

It's hilarious to see Let's Plays with people using high-end PCs still having these same issues of long load times and unsightly map refreshing.

 

[Gorbles]

WoW is also an example of what you can accomplish with good art direction and minimal bloat.

I needed a bit of a laugh this morning, thankee

Endless Legend was released in 2014 after an extensive beta programme (which I agree Firaxis games would benefit from, if only 2K could see), several years after the debut of the CiV game engine.

That's like criticising Dawn of War for having inferior performance to DoW II.

Talk graphics to me. Tell me the breakdown of the Starcraft 2 pipeline and how that compares to Beyond Earth, particularly in Rising Tide where the developers stated the rendering pipeline had to be significantly revamped to handle the coastal / ocean rendering and all that came with it. I'm very familiar with games development jargon so feel free to not hold back.

My particular suspicion is that you're saying "I don't think these graphics are complex, ergo they must have been easy to make", which is an attitude that pervades opinions held of the 2D and indie game sectors despite any technological merits those games may possess.

I mean, I'm very used to people with little experience in any field relating to games development making assumptions - you make the best with the knowledge you have - but when push comes to shove you need to back up those assumptions with <something> otherwise you'll end up looking like you're just blowing hot air.

 

[Westwall]

I faced with that problem, too... Thanks for useful info!

Everyone's been having this problem. It basically comes down to poor coding, which also might explain why the AI seems to be getting worse. The game is such a mess now that even if the devs wanted to improve the AI, they probably wouldn't know where to begin.

 

[hevans900]

Everyone's been having this problem. It basically comes down to poor coding, which also might explain why the AI seems to be getting worse. The game is such a mess now that even if the devs wanted to improve the AI, they probably wouldn't know where to begin.

Poor coding? Can you elaborate on that point please? I would have to assume you have deep knowledge of the Civ codebase to make a statement like that.

Let me direct you to this, which is actually a fairly in depth interview with Will/David about the software development lifecycle of BE. Give it a read and hopefully it will give you a little bit more appreciation for the level of depth these guys went to when designing this game.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Let me direct you to this, which is actually a fairly in depth interview with Will/David about the software development lifecycle of BE.

What is interesting in that article is that it reveals how the code has pieces from civ3, 4, and 5. I realize that is how coding works, you build upon the work of your predecessors. But I can't help but think that it must make the task of coding for a new game like BE more difficult especially since each lead programmer has their own style.

 

[Gorbles]

New code is always built on old code. Theoretically, starting from scratch every time wherever it's necessary is ideal, but time constraints are a huge restriction on this ideal.

Plus, sometimes old code just works. Don't change what isn't broken, ever

T'was an interesting article. Not sure how I missed it, I read Gamasutra a lot and I was following BE very closely back in late 2014.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Plus, sometimes old code just works. Don't change what isn't broken, ever

True, but I suspect that some of the old code (civ3 or civ4) might be broken too. It might explain why some bugs have persisted for so long and why the AI still has some of the same issues.

I would add that coding can be very difficult. There are so many interconnected parts. There could be parts of code that worked for civ4 with mupt but don't work for civ5 with 1upt. So something that worked just fine in a previous version, now suddenly introduces new bugs when a different part of code is added or removed.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

The graphics are fine, but I wouldn't call them particularly fancy.

I guess my real point is that I think strategy games like civ should focus more on gameplay and AI rather than graphics. I am not saying that we need to go back to 2d sprites but I think most players on this forum would be ok with BERT having lesser graphics if it meant better AI. And while I realize that BERT graphics aren't the best in the industry, I still feel like Firaxis might be putting more focus than necessary on presentation rather than on gameplay and AI.

It's hilarious to see Let's Plays with people using high-end PCs still having these same issues of long load times and unsightly map refreshing.

What is even worse is that it has happened during official Firaxis live streams with Pete playing.

 

[Westwall]

Poor coding? Can you elaborate on that point please? I would have to assume you have deep knowledge of the Civ codebase to make a statement like that.

Let me direct you to this, which is actually a fairly in depth interview with Will/David about the software development lifecycle of BE. Give it a read and hopefully it will give you a little bit more appreciation for the level of depth these guys went to when designing this game.

That didn't convince me of anything I didn't already know, which is that these devs are shooting blindly in the dark hoping something sticks.

So something that worked just fine in a previous version, now suddenly introduces new bugs when a different part of code is added or removed.

And now it's bottle-necking BE's performance so the game has become a bloated mess.

 

[hevans900]

That didn't convince me of anything I didn't already know, which is that these devs are shooting blindly in the dark hoping something sticks.

If you read what I said in my post I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, I was just trying help you have some slight resemblance of appreciation for the BE dev team. That article examples the introduction of the Victory Wonders, and how that particular problem was coded on top of the CiV engine - showing that nobody is 'blindly shooting in the dark' - there has been a clear analysis of the problem with a solution presented by one of the lead developers.

You are still yet to elaborate on what you mean by 'poor coding'. Civ BE is built entirely off a customised CiV engine, with ~80-90% of the game's functionality carrying over from CiV, meaning the vast majority of the code will be directly ported from CiV, with minor alterations. The CiV engine is built upon the Civ 4 one, which is built upon the Civ 3 one and so on.

By stating that BE is the result of 'poor coding' is essentially insulting anyone who has ever worked on ANY of the Civilization games' codebases. You are a huge advocate of CiV as is obvious from a plethora of your posts, so would you call that 'poorly coded'?

I think BE lacks an innovative design, but don't hate on the people writing the code.

I'll say it again - I am not trying to convince you of anything - just trying to understand why you are so upset all the time

 

[Westwall]

If you read what I said in my post I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, I was just trying help you have some slight resemblance of appreciation for the BE dev team.

I have every confidence that they're trying their hardest - that they're doing their best.

That doesn't change the fact that they're out of their element and are repeatedly dropping the ball on this title. Likewise, I wouldn't expect a psych major to capably perform open heart surgery, as much as I might commend him for trying.

My giving them a pat on the back and a gold star for "trying" and "being under a lot of pressure" doesn't make them better 4x developers.

It's a hard truth to learn, but if they want to work in the industry, they gotta know how to close.

As consumers, it's not our responsibility to sit around and be patient waiting and cheering on the producers in the hopes that they might eventually learn from their mistakes and make (at added cost) something we should've had in the first place. Our place is to judge whether a product is worth our time and money.

And BE in its current form just isn't worth my time and money.

Because at the end of the day, it's do or do not do. There is no try.

 

[Gorbles]

The problem with the psych major analogy is that the people you're criticising here are actually developers, doing games development. They're not doing something beyond their remit in the slightest, and the article that was linked to you is evidence of that.

That said, there's quite a difference between "the devs are shooting blindly in the dark" and "the devs are trying their hardest and doing their best". I'm confused as to your 180 degree turn on phrasing there, unless the developers trying their hardest and doing their best involves being blind and missing a lot. In which case, refer back to my first paragraph.

 

[hevans900]

And BE in its current form just isn't worth my time and money.

Because at the end of the day, it's do or do not do. There is no try.

Then why do you spend so much time posting on a forum dedicated to BE? Clearly you do care enough to spend a fair amount of time discussing the game - so it is worth your time (?).

 

[Hail]

Because at the end of the day, it's do or do not do. There is no try.

Will & David hear nothing that we say. they must unlearn what they have learned.
try not. do. or do not. there is no try.

Spoiler :

Link to video.

 

[Westwall]

By stating that BE is the result of 'poor coding' is essentially insulting anyone who has ever worked on ANY of the Civilization games' codebases.

Also, this is complete nonsense.

I'll point to what SK said earlier:

There could be parts of code that worked for civ4 with mupt but don't work for civ5 with 1upt. So something that worked just fine in a previous version, now suddenly introduces new bugs when a different part of code is added or removed.

In other words, if they're intentionally trying to use old coding for new mechanics regardless of whether it actually makes sense, that's their own damn fault.

If someone takes the Lincoln Memorial, adorns it in Christmas decorations and tries to pass it off as this year's Mall Santa, I'm not insulting the memory of Abraham Lincoln by saying "That's actually a pretty godawful Mall Santa."

 

[Gorbles]

I'm getting the feeling that you don't know much about how games development works.

There are a lot of time constraints involved.

 

[hevans900]

I was trying to be polite but you continually do a fantastic job of somehow turning any discussion aggressive/in to an argument. What I said is not nonsense, and if you disagree with what someone has said - you need to provide evidence to the contrary - not simply tell someone they are wrong. This is fairly basic logic that I learnt around age 10.

The Civilisation games are compounded upon one another, one developer can not be held accountable for huge underlying aspects of an engine that they are expected to adapt.

To quote yourself, you are 'out of your element' and quite frankly aren't qualified to be talking about this stuff.

 

[Westwall]

The Civilisation games are compounded upon one another, one developer can not be held accountable for huge underlying aspects of an engine that they are expected to adapt.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

You're making things up as you go and then accusing others of not knowing what they're talking about.

That's counter-productive.