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(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Buildings

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 23, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 6, 2018.
  1. Yes

    100.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    This thread will debate the standard buildings. Unique Buildings should be discussed in the leaders thread, not in this one.

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    I will say that I think Agribusiness is pretty weak given it's high strategic resource requirement. Could it be changed to +2 food on horses, cows, sheep, wheat and farms instead of +3 on pastures and farms? I often find myself planting GPTI on those and it makes it hard to get benefit in your capital
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Give food to any worker not working a specialist slot, now that you are at it. It's not logical, but it is easier to understand
     
  4. grmagne

    grmagne Chieftain

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    Wouldn't that hurt Agribusiness? Most of the tiles we're getting food from would drop from +3 to +2 in exchange for maybe 1 GPTI per city.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    All,

    Buildings have been locked for the gold release, so we aren't making any further changes to them.
     
  6. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    Increasing the base food on the building can compensate. It would make the building much more flexible overall
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Given the overhaul that crime/distress got last patch, and how it throws the defensive building line into limbo, I think we need to unlock this thread. The recent changes to city defense and crime have made defensive buildings (walls/castles/arsenal/military base) highly situational. Most of the value of these buildings now depends on your cities being attacked.

    Gazebo suggested a new mechanic could be created which allows defensive buildings to "project" a city's influence to make city tile claiming cheaper:
    I'm guessing the marginal tile acquisition cost for each subsequent tile would be increased to make room for this.
    I don't think this would entirely fix the issue with defensive buildings, particularly the later ones like arsenal and M. base. By mid-game you will have claimed all 3rd ring tiles anyways, so most players won't pay it much mind.

    Maybe the buildings could reduce building maintenance in the city? As a proxy for reducing crime (vandalism/arson)?
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I should note that I have other plans for these buildings which I'll discuss later (if I can get them to work properly).
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  9. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    This was locked awfully quickly.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    It's been locked for some time - it's my fault for tweaking happiness.

    G
     
  11. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    Buildings locked...because tweaking happiness...what...? :/
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Seriously? We locked changes to buildings, and then I changed how buildings work for defense with regards to happiness.

    G
     
  13. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    My point was that there didn't seem to be much of any kind of discussion that occurred that seemed to justify locking it so quickly. Anyways - shall we not discuss again after the changes and determine whether they have acquired the desired result?
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  14. ashendashin

    ashendashin Chieftain

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    No 'no' votes or discussion of any sort for the 2 weeks it was up. I'd say locking it was reasonable but buildings are tied to a lot of things. Should've been one of the last threads to even be made IMO.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree to unlock the thread. Its why I stopped the polls while teh happiness change is occurring, no point since it effects so many things.

    Its also important to keep in mind that no topic here is debated for only 2 weeks. We have debated these topics....for months and years. The two weeks is just to get people focused and nail down their take on these various topics.
     
  16. Gidoza

    Gidoza Chieftain

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    Yes that's fair enough. However I'm inclined to think that too many topics at once may cause some to end up getting ignored of replies (like this one). Of course, everything is connected, though - we may change one thing somewhere only to find out that we need to unlock another thread because we have broken everything inside.
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Its definitely a balancing act. The trick is....there are a lot of topics to cover. For example, the first polls went out in mid May. We are now in August, and don't have consensus on even half the topics covered so far. We are still months away at the current pace I'm going, so if I went slower it could be the middle of next year before we finish this up.
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Getting back on track. Here’s an idea for a mechanic that Defense buildings could contribute to:

    At the beginning of the game, you have a set cap for how many population you can have working tiles. Every pop above that consumes additional resources. Defensive buildings increase this cap

    Start of game: 8
    Walls increase cap to 15
    Castle increases cap to 22
    Arsenal increases cap to 29
    Military base increases cap to 36 (the max number of tiles workable by a city)

    Every additional :c5citizen: working a tile above his limit consumes 3:c5food: and 1:c5culture: instead of 2:c5food:, so working extra tiles slows population and border growth slightly.

    City walls and defensive structures allow the nearest city to project influence over the nearby rural communities. They ensure protection, but they also reinforce the sovereign’s ability to collect tax and integrate those communities. Very Hobbesian... This is depicted by it being costlier to collect from rural populations in excess of a certain cap. Walls wouldn’t be necessary, but in a city of 15+ pop, they could save you 7:c5food:/:c5culture: of lost income every turn

    This would have the added benefit of making specialists feel more important, since their yields can feel pretty insubstantial right now, and makes specialists a way to avoid this ‘tile tax’
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  19. Legen

    Legen Chieftain

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    That looks like a lot of extra code. It would be easier to just add 1 :c5happy: at this point, which was what you'd got from fighting crime.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    G was talking about a new mechanic, but didn't describe it. It sounds like new code is on the table for re-integrating defense buildings.

    What I am describing above is essentialy a modified version of the health mechanic from Civ IV, and resurrecting civ IV mechanics seems to be popular
     

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