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(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Buildings

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 23, 2018.

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Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 6, 2018.
  1. Yes

    100.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    The reason why I'm talking about domination is that, when people are defending Mine Fields, their first response is that this building helps slow down warmongers. I do understand that there's a whole spectrum of play but many of the posts responding to me are addressing warmonger and domination style games. If you have any other styles you want to discuss, I'd be happy to talk about them.

    As for your example with Ethiopia, we all know that the AI navy currently cannot compare with their army. Therefore, the AI performs sub-optimal when it comes to naval invasions compared to the human player. Here, you stated that you have zero navy and have just ranged units. Does that include air units or just ranged land units? If you have air units, how much of an impact do they have on the war? If you have no air units, then why should anyone with solely an army be able to hold off a navy with the help of a single building? If the latter, I feel there's a bigger balance issue because decent players can hold off naval attacks without Mine Fields. You add in Mine Fields and the odds of winning decisively is that much higher. For me, I can see the human player absolutely abuse Mine Fields while the AI doesn't have a clue.

    Maybe I wasn't being clear with my thoughts. I'm speaking of warmongering dominating the world in the previous eras because that's where most of the UU are unlocked. If you are a warmonger, you will doubt be using that timing when UU becomes available to take advantage of the military spike. In addition to that, the Frigate and Cruisers are both quite strong for their time so those are also a good time to war. You are right that there can be formidable opponents into the late late game but a lot of games are usually decided by then, especially with runaway civs on other continents.

    I can see your reasoning but my question is why Mine Fields? Why are we using a building to achieve this? Why do we give so much defensive power to a single building that, in the hands of a human player, can be used to devastating effect while the AI don't know how to use properly? In addition, are air units not a counter to Battleships? Bombers have 6 range that they can attack. For a Battleship to attack and take no damage from the Bomber, it would require 11 Movements. I don't even know if that's possible as I can only see 10 being feasible and this requires some pretty big investments and the right civs.

    For me personally, Mine Fields doesn't help with balance as it gives human players one way to exploit to replace the other easily exploitable mechanic. Instead of us easily taking coastal cities, we now have a tool that let's us completely neglect a navy and maybe even an air force and still keep our coastal cities safe. The real question is whether or not we want to favor defensive or offensive play in the late game as asked by @Stalker0 . Until we can answer that question, this discussion will go nowhere. After all, defensive focused will promote Minefields and offensive focused wants it gone. I personally think we need a better look at the late game naval units regarding their roles and their counters. Since we're going for gold, I guess that won't be quite possible for the moment. Maybe I'll start a new thread since we aren't getting anywhere and I'm still not convinced a Mine Field is necessary for balance reasons.

    No, I'm saying that, until we enter Atomic Era, we only have two naval unit lines, one that's melee and one that's ranged. If you look at land units, they have upgrades throughout the ages so a Horsemen can eventually become a Tank. A Skirmisher can eventually be a Light Tank. Archers can eventually become a Machine Gun. Well, you get the idea. For navy, we have this awkward situation where Carriers and Submarines have nothing upgrading into them. To get them, you must build them from complete scratch with at most four promotions. With limited supply, it seems silly, to me at least, to expect diversity this late in the game when so many resources and time are invested in the eventual Destroyer and Battleship. This was addressing arguments that state we need diversity where you need air and navy to take down cities and how Mine Field helps force that diversity.

    Buffs can be a nice idea. Maybe instead of forcing the enemy to lose more movements, friendly units can get more defensive bonuses and extra movements. This kinda simulate your navy actively planting more mines and take advantage of the situation rather than having no navy and mines magically respawn to hinder further progress despite having no naval presence whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  2. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    The bolded section is the crux of the statement: building new units isn't worth it compared to upgrading your current units, so why should the game expect diversity of units past what was always available?

    This is tangential to the Mine Field discussion, and is its own issue (and should probably be in the going for Gold: units discussion): the balance between upgrading and producing.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  3. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    My thoughts is how much weight we should put on the newly available units compared to Destroyers and Battleships. Do we expect players to disband some of their reasonably experienced Battleships and Destroyers to make room for Submarine, Carriers and planes? Do we want a Destroyer and Battleship only composition to still dominate the seas or do we need the new units working together and thus limiting their overall contribution. I do think that this isn't the right thread to discuss late game naval units anymore so I'll start a new thread soonish. However, I can tell that you naval diversity is at a really awkward stage at the moment with when new tools are available. It's certainly not as fleshed out as the land diversity.
     
  4. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    The game expects that the player will often disband reasonably experienced units to build that same unit's updated version instead of upgrading it, so there's room to disband deprecated units for units of new types. The game may not incentivize it enough, though.
     
  5. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

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    Maybe it's because I play Emperor/Epic/huge (and new ships from ENW and I also add a new dreadnought line of capital ships, which cannot move after shooting), I also enable only dom and science victory. So maybe my conditions are too specific, but I am quitre baffled by this discussion.
    - I always build a lot of subs and some carriers and I have a good use for every type of naval unit
    - Are you saying that you have to disband old units in order to have supply for new ones? I always slightly over 50% of supply in later game stages
    - I myself use mine fields for 1 tile island cities or cities guarding important passages
    - Maybe it is worse on Deity, but on Emperor, I do not meet enemy mine fields that often, so I never really considered them to be a big obstacle
    - Mine field makes perfect sense for me. Same as in RL, in Civ games you develop new weapons and then something that counters them - be it a unit or a building. So I think that mine fields come at the right time when your ranged ships start to gain such a high movement rate that they can move in and shoot and then retreat to safety without taking any punishment (which, by the way, was my main argument against the change of ranged ships to the current hit-and-run "skirmisher" type).

    So mine fields make sense to me and I would like them to stay as they are.

    Edit: I also lower the strength of defensive buildings by about 25-35% and rannged attack of non-siege ranged land units a bit.
     
  6. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    I too have never hit the supply cap outside of war weariness.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  7. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    How do you do this? This is one of the few things I've felt was lacking from naval warfare.
     
  8. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

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    You mean adding the 3rd line of ships losing all the movement after shooting or just reverting the ranged ships to it?

    I can share my modmod with you, but is not polished yet (so I am hesitant to upload it to the modmod repository). Also, I must warn you, the ranged units were changed to hit-and-run for a reason: it is AI friendlier. The main reason why I did this was flavor - I like ships IRL and to me, having destroyers and battleships but no cruisers in between was a heresy :) So now I have melee destroyers, skirmisher cruisers and siege battleships (which are probably used better by humans than AIs). So far the very limited testing is showing nothing broken, but I am still fiddling with numbers.

    If you just want to revert the ranged to their old state, you need to delete 1 promotion, I can tell you which one, when I get to my computer (but again, mind the AI friendliness).
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Is it confirmed that Caravansaries get their bonus from all deserts tiles AROUND the city, and not tiles worked? If so we need to update the tooltip.

    Edit: Checking my latest game, I know its not every desert tile around the city (my entire empire is in desert in this current game and the bonuses are too low for that). So its either desert tiles worked, or desert tiles within your borders.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    pineappledan likes this.
  10. psparky

    psparky Prince

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    I checked (in an older version) and it's only worked tiles (as per the tooltip).

    I don't think it's changed that I remember seeing.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yep, makes sense to me. I also think the maintenance on the lighthouse could be lowered. Coastal can always use a little love!
     
    Kim Dong Un likes this.

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