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(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Great People

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    80.0%
  2. No

    20.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    This thread will debate the abilities of Great People. Note: This is not to discuss the specialists that create them.

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    I think the way that Great Merchant's bulbing ability scales might need some love. In the early game, you have to decide wether you prefer a large amount of gold now and some turns of WLTKD or a good GTI that scales quite nicely. Later on, though, the amount of gold you receive for bulbing is almost negligible, and the extra turns of WLTKD... doesn't seem enough. Maybe give 2 more turns of WLTKD for every Town, instead of 1? Or let the amount of gold for bulbing scale with number of Towns too?

    Also, I've already said this before, but I think the GWs of Writing deserve a "common" building theme. If the Amphitheatre would be too soon, what about Universities? Seems thematic. I don't mind if the theme requirements are tough, but I want to be able to get more themes from that type of GWs. We have Museums and Radios. Why not one building for GWs of Writing?
     
    Bromar1, Hinin, CppMaster and 2 others like this.
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I think you would be looking at an entirely new building, and that's unlikely to happen now.

    Ideally, a building with 2 GWW slots would come in renaissance, since that is 2 eras after you get the writer's guild. GWA gets theirs in Industrial (guild in Medieval; museum in Industrial), and GWM gets it in Modern (guild in renaissance; B Tower in Modern). Unfortunately, there are no decent candidates for 2 GWW slots on any of the Rennaissance buildings. There's only 5 buildings in that era, after all.
     
  4. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    We could just toss a theme bonus and an extra slot on the Amphitheater if we really want to. But I don't want to overload the amount of theme bonuses. Oxford University exists for a reason.

    I don't mind a low amount of theme bonuses for Writers, it makes wonders like Globe Theater more relevant despite it having less slots than other wonders.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Giving the amphitheater a theme would bump its priority up just a hair, which is fine. Writers could use the buff.

    G
     
    ElliotS and CppMaster like this.
  6. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    Just an idea for the Amphitheaters theme. What about: Great Works must be from different eras, but not consecutive.

    This way, I think you easily avoid early themes, and it hasn't been used yet, right? (we only have kind of a consecutive requirement for Museums and... Radios, maybe?). Not sure if it is codeable, or how difficult would it be, though.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  7. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I think while the GPs aren't balanced compared to each other, that getting one doesn't increase cost of all the others makes it more than fine. More reason to make more than one Town would be okay, however.

    By the way how much does every Great Work of Writing increase your bulbs? If it's 2 or 5% as the interface has shown it to me last time, I'd say it needs improvement.
     
  8. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    IIRC, it's 3% for every GW. Unless the tooltip was wrong.

    I think the Great Writer bulbing ability is already good enough, cause it seems to "scale" with your current culture/turn. In the early game I'd say it's definitely not worth to bulb. However, later on, one bulb can grant you a new social policy almost instantly. And, if you have some GWs, the odds increase even more. The bulbing is strong enough, specially considering the Hidden antiquity sites.

    Also, I think the idea (well, at least my idea ^^u) is to make the GWs of Writing more appealing by having a theme in a common building (being it the Amphitheater, the University, or any other). Buffing the bulbing ability would have the opposite effect.
     
  9. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I don't recommend buff the bulb, but the improvement from each work. That could potentially require a nerf to the overall thing, but then it's probably unneeded, it scales by your culture per turn which is naturally higher later, and there's no point bulbing them too early.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Is it possible to add the extra slots for the amphitheater, unlocked by a Renaissance tech?
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Personally I don’t see a need to change theming. Writing works are fine to me. They provide a good little bump to culture early, but really pay off in the late game as you shift to bulbing. Also consider there are policies and council votes thst make them even better.

    Changing themes just seems like a sudden shift that isn’t really needed as we are trying to get to gold.
     
  12. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    I think all specialist and great person is quite balance.

    Maybe merchant specialist is a bit too weak. I never work it (only when playing Venice). 5 gold is totally faaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr inferior compared to 5 science, 5 culture or 5 hammer.

    For GP, either bulbed or as improvement and GW, all are equally balance.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    No.

    I would agree if not for the inconsistency in design re: base building with theme for each GW type.

    G
     
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  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I think way things are right has a symmetry of its own. Adding 2 slots to amphitheater would break that.

    Museum and broadcast tower, the common theme buildings for art and music, come 2 eras later. Amphitheater comes too soon.

    GWW are unique out of the three because there is already a national wonder (Oxford) with a theming bonus. Why not expand on that? You could make national wonders the source of Writing’s ‘common’ theming bonus.

    National epic
    School of philosophy
    Grand temple
    Oxford University

    That would be 4 buildings with 2 slots each. That would do it, right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I can add one great work slot to the amphitheater and a weak, low-key theme or...I can rework 4 national wonders? I think you are overthinking it.

    G
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Well... yeah. It's just a few adjustments to the SQL values, so it's not too much trouble.

    Oxford already has 2 slots and a weak theming bonus, so it's only 3 changes. 2 of the wonders I proposed (N Epic and SoPhilosophy) already have 1 writing slot. That doesn't really constitute a rework, does it?

    All I'm saying is that there is one national wonder that already does a theming bonus, so that seems like a good starting point.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The key, though, is that having the theme-er scale with # of cities (which doesn't work on a national wonder).

    G
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Does it have to be 1 themed per city, or would people be happy with just having enough theming slots? For me personally, my frustration comes from having more GWs than I have possible theming bonuses; I don’t care what city they are in
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    But it matters. If you choose Artistry for going wide, those great works give happiness and yields in the cities they are located. So putting all of them in the same city is punishing wide happiness.
     
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  20. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Stock Exchanges boost Towns by 2 :c5gold:. We can increase this value if others say it is weak; I would say it is.
     
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