1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Great People

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    80.0%
  2. No

    20.0%
  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,167
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    A matter of taste, I suppose. My biggest complaint about this is that it encourages using great engineers in already good cities, making it hard to spread your world wonders.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,688
    Honestly does anyone actually spread their world wonders? Unless I’m well ahead and can afford to be lazy I would never risk committing to a wonder that I’m not giving my best effort too...it’s too easy for an opponent to snipe.

    How many times have you lost a wonder by one turn...it’s just too risky
     
  3. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    833
    The AI does, frequently.
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,167
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    I could spread them, at least in king, had the great engineers the same value for any city. I'd still build the most strategic ones in my capital, but secondary ones I may risk in secondary cities, relieving my capital production for more common stuff.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. azum4roll

    azum4roll Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    166
    Gender:
    Male
    I'd keep all the yield percentage bonuses and specialist wonders to the capital, except the diplomatic wonders that goes to the diplomat-spam city.
     
  6. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,623
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    I also sometimes do with engineers + investing on Emperor. Some wonders have restrictions such as next to water / mountain, etc. and I sometimes try for 2 wonders at the same time. But I have to admit that I use that mod which informs you if you are losing the wonder race. I would probably still do it even without the mod, but probably less often.

    Either way, I agree with @tu_79. I think engineer hurry function should let you improve your less developed cities or help build wonders in them.
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,815
    Location:
    Beijing
    Doesn't the engineer hurry function already lets you improve less developed cities or build wonders in them?

    There aren't very many reasons to spread wonders out (there are some exceptions, like building requirements). I think you could change Great Engineers to whatever you want, it wouldn't make spreading wonders a good move.
     
  8. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,623
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    I can think of a couple of reasons for spreading wonders:
    - terrain/location/building requrements such as "must be coastal" or "must have a mountain within range"
    - you are trying to get 2 wonders at the same time
    - you want to specialise a non-capital city (e. g. a warfare related wonder in a military producing city or a religious wonder in your holy city if it is not your capital)
    - you have built so many wonders in your capital (which increased the local wonder production penalty) that it is faster and safer to build the wonder in a non-capital city

    I agree that it is usually better to build most of the wonders in your capital, but not all and not always. Moreover I feel it is a bit obscure/complicated to let the engineer hurry function have a different effect on different cities. Make it scale somehow based on the city of origin/time when produced/time when used? Yes, but let it have the same effect on all cities (= same hammers when used).
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,688
    Ultimately the wonder spread thing belays the point.

    Right now there is lots of incentive to build wonders in your capital. Changing the GE isn’t going to really change that calculus.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,581
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    This distracts from GE's plateauing in late game as city sizes level out. I think that's a bigger concern

    Bulbing should keep pace with the production cost of buildings/wonders in late game. Order's lvl3 tenet that unlocks rushing spaceship parts relies on that (false) assumption.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
    Rekk and chicorbeef like this.
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,167
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Still another effect of linking city size to great engineer rush ability. Unless you focus your capital on growing (trade routes with good and whathats) the scaling goes down late game.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,581
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    :c5citizen:That’s why my original proposal was to reduce the population scaler, maybe to 30:c5production:/:c5citizen:City size and 20:c5production:/:c5greatperson:GEng birth on empire. I see no reason to completely eliminate pop scalers or else people will be building the red fort in tiny border cities and griefing neighbours with their 4:c5rangedstrength:range baby city
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  13. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,271
    Gender:
    Male
    Why don't we just scale off :c5production: in a city? It's the most intuitive solution that scales the best in my mind.

    Technically, this particular wonder's utility (Red Fort) is heavily based off the city in where it's built, so having more flexibility would be a nice thing...
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,688
    Hehe I agree this was probably one of the worst examples to pick. Red Fort is one of the few wonders I do make an effort to build outside of my capital, especially since if I use a GE to build it, I just get it right back! ;)
     
  15. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,623
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    Ha! Isn't it actually something we DO want people to do? Or at least let them do it?

    I can accept some scaling based on something related to the city where the engineer was born, but I would prefer having the effect not related to the target city in any way. I don't understand the reason why it should scale.
     
  16. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    833
    What's wrong with that? We shouldn't be discouraging people to build Wonders outside the capital, there're already many disincentives to doing so.
     
    tu_79 and vyyt like this.
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,688
    What if the GEs scaling was based on the highest production from any of your cities?

    So for one moment, your crap satellite got the power of your capitals production. So you could build wonders in other spots.

    Now that said, their would have to be controls to prevent some abuses brought up earlier in the thread. You would probably not include trade routes in that calculAtion, and would need to do a 10 turn average to ensure some consistency.
     
    vyyt and chicorbeef like this.
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,102
    Location:
    Aquidneck Island
    Solution looking for a problem.

    G
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,688
    The original problem that started the debate was that GE bulbing doesn’t scale well. My thought was just providing a side benefit to one idea.

    I would agree that satellite cities unable to build wonders is by itself not worth tackling, but if the solution kills two birds with one stone than great.
     
    chicorbeef likes this.
  20. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    833
    Solution to an existing problem.
     

Share This Page