Going for Gold: Reformation Beliefs

[phantomaxl1207]

It is important to remember common sense when looking at balance. Like with the Sacred Sites.

 

[Legen]

Sacred Sites is currently at odds with itself.

If you want to use SS, you want to go wide, to get a lot of those buildings. However, going wide gives you a crippling modifier to your tourism output, so the bonus you get from each additional city is almost zero.
I think it could use an additional bonus which reduces the tourism penalty from having many cities (if I had to throw out a number, I would say to 50%).

Maybe it's the tourism penalty that needs tweaking? 75% was from before Cultural victory needed a wonder.

Either way, Sacred Sites seems to me more of a tourism plan for civs that are already going wide, but want to stay relevant in tourism. The need for a CV wonder already takes away the former niche of early CV from Sacred Sites, so I don't think this reformation can be evaluated the same way. It may need an update, though.

 

[ElliotS]

Sacred Sites is still bad. It needs a reduction to wide tourism penalty % to have a niche again.

 

[Owlbebach]

I kinda think that Jesuit Education and Faith for Masses might loose additional science and culture on buildings, but become cheaper in terms of faith. It will be more interesting gameplay-wise, currently you usually don't buy them for faith cause they are too expensive, you just build them but get huge boost. It will be more intetesting when you can get them faster but they are still the same strenght

I'd like to point out at this idea again cause apparently it was not notieced despite having quite a lot of support. I think making it ~2-3 times cheaper in terms of faith and without +5 is really a good move, both balance-wise and gameplay-wise (it will be more interesting and more strategic!)

 

[ElliotS]

I'd like to point out at this idea again cause apparently it was not notieced despite having quite a lot of support. I think making it ~2-3 times cheaper in terms of faith and without +5 is really a good move, both balance-wise and gameplay-wise (it will be more interesting and more strategic!)

I disagree. The main point of the beliefs is the yields. This changes their purpose completely. I do thing FfTM is weak, and would like to see a slight buff. Maybe increase culture a bit or reduce prices.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

For Faith of the Masses, you do have to wait for an Era and a half longer to get any bonus. Unless, we change the Yields and add another Building for it to benefit from, say the Ampitheatre.

 

[Owlbebach]

I disagree. The main point of the beliefs is the yields. This changes their purpose completely. I do thing FfTM is weak, and would like to see a slight buff. Maybe increase culture a bit or reduce prices.

Science-per-turn is boring, you just normally build your universities/Schools the same way you do this in every other game, you just get more from them. My proposal forces player to think more and to act more, this will be much more interesting gamedesign-wise. What i want is to make those belief influence players playstyle, cause right now thye almost don't.

Making it cheaper is also yields, it is just more flexible and strategic. It will give you a window to grab your advantage that short-term would be even higher than with science-per-turn. With my idea (and if you use this belief correctly) you get 3 huge science boosts during the game and you need to understand how to utilize them instead of playing normally.

 

[CrazyG]

Can I ask why exactly threads with active discussion are getting the "LOCKED" in the title? This thread has some good disagreements, and it seems like the only people agreeing are advocating a change...............

I kind of agree with Owlbebach on this one. The idea of building universities with faith is much more interesting than raw yields. There is room for both, but currently faith purchases for universities or other buildings are exceedingly rare. Something like +3 science per, and 50% of the current faith cost (tweak numbers as needed).

 

[chicorbeef]

I'd like to point out at this idea again cause apparently it was not notieced despite having quite a lot of support. I think making it ~2-3 times cheaper in terms of faith and without +5 is really a good move, both balance-wise and gameplay-wise (it will be more interesting and more strategic!)

I have a random idea (please tell me if it's totally OP or not)-make it so that you don't need the necessary techs to get to Public Schools/Research Labs, lower the prices a little but still keep them expensive (like old Archaeologist prices). How does that sound?

Edit: We could restrict Public Schools/Research Labs to Industrial to prevent it from being OP as well.

 

[Owlbebach]

Something like +3 science per, and 50% of the current faith cost (tweak numbers as needed)

Exactly there is always a place for tweaking numbers, though i'd prefer reducing price to 30% ofr current without extra yields. Or maybe leave 2 extra culture on Fait for Masses

I have a random idea (please tell me if it's totally OP or not)-make it so that you don't need the necessary techs to get to Public Schools/Research Labs, lower the prices a little but still keep them expensive (like old Archaeologist prices). How does that sound?
Edit: We could restrict Public Schools/Research Labs to Industrial to prevent it from being OP as well.

I'd say this is redundant... Maybe not as much OP but unnecessary

 

[Stalker0]

Can I ask why exactly threads with active discussion are getting the "LOCKED" in the title? This thread has some good disagreements, and it seems like the only people agreeing are advocating a change...............

I kind of agree with Owlbebach on this one. The idea of building universities with faith is much more interesting than raw yields. There is room for both, but currently faith purchases for universities or other buildings are exceedingly rare. Something like +3 science per, and 50% of the current faith cost (tweak numbers as needed).

G already asked me to unlock this one just got lazy and forgot

 

[phantomaxl1207]

As boring as Yields per Turn are, they are the better part of Jesuit and Faith right now. I would like to see some of the Yield kept.

 

[EriktheRead]

Thing is if we add enough of a % reduction in tourism penalties to make sacred sights viable again it then becomes mandatory for anyone going wide tourism.

 

[Owlbebach]

Yeah, i'll copy my post from Enhancers thread here cause i didn't notice that it was an Enhancers thread

Why not just reduce the people required to reform?

I second this. I do not see any downsides of this, 20% is really hard to get on Standard map and actually requires some significant luck. But if we set it to 15% - i'm pretty sure we will not be seeing every religion Reformed every game, usually there is one religion that is significantly stronger than others, which will usually left 2 weakest religions without Reformation.

That makes the gameplay more shallow. If the number of people required for reform is reduced, there are more reformers, and there's less chance you can't reform. If there's less chance you can't reform, there's a less important opportunity cost. It reduces the strategic depth present in the game.

Ideally Reformation would remain limited, but not be limited merely to wide religions.

I don't think so. First of all keep in mind that as i said usually one religion is significantly stronger because they snowball. Second, keep in mind that number of Reformation beliefs is limited, thats not only about getting reformation, it is about getting the right one. Third, most Founders scale pretty damn good from number of cities/followers so it still makes enough reason for strong religion to continue spreading after they reformed

EDIT: I really like 15% because for Standard map, 5 Religions per 8-10 players on average it requires to convert A LITTLE MORE than 1 Civilization:
8 civs * 0.15 = 1.2 civs with your religion required to get a reformation
8 civs * 0.20 = 1.6 civs with your religion required to get a reformation

With that said lets think of how religion race develops in the game

Usually when you spread to a non-founder - they start to buy missionaries and spread your religion all over their cities - it obviously a very beneficial thing to do for them cause they get a follower in addition to the Pantheon.
Now imagine that there is Ethiopia, or Spain or any other strong reliogius civ in the game that have high faith income and founds pretty early. Maybe someone just settled near Mount Kailash. Or maybe he is not an early founder, but simply blocks everyones entrance to the territory of his neighbor. This things happen all the time! This player starts to convert his neighbor and converts him.

When someone succeeded with conversion of one non-founder - there is less players left unconverted. It is now actually 4 religions per 6 players, and if 20% is the required number this already leaves us with 2 if not all 4 of this religions not going to be reformed naturally.

Now with 15% you only need to have 1.2 civilizations on average to get your reformation. This is an ideal number to create some religion wars where you are spending faith on Missionaries to get that final 1-2%, which is a lot of fun. If you need to convert 1.6 - this actually means more than half, which leads to situation where you were lucky to reform or you don't even bother trying cause you have zero chance.

 

[CrazyG]

Reformation beliefs are pretty well balanced against each other, other than maybe Glory of God. If there is a problem with refromations, its that as a group they are too powerful. They all play directly into a win condition, and not having one makes it really hard to beat someone who does. Compare to founders, which while nice to have, you can certainly win without.

EDIT: I really like 15% because for Standard map, 5 Religions per 8-10 players on average it requires to spread to MORE than 1 Civilization. Usually when you spread to a non-founder - they start to buy missionaries and spread your religion all over their cities. When someone succeeded with conversion of one non-founder - there is less civs left. This is an ideal number to create some religion wars where you are spending faith on Missionaries to get that final 1-2%, which is a lot of fun!

You need to factor city states.

Third, most Founders scale pretty damn good from number of cities/followers so it still makes enough reason for strong religion to continue spreading after they reformed

Only some of them do. I think this is tied to another problem people are pointing out though. If I want to spread and keep my religion in that area, I'm usually going to conquer it. Its just easier that competing with the AI in a missionary war.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I don't think anyone is complaining about the Reformation Beliefs, other than maybe TtGoG. Just the timing of Reformation. I do think this fits better in the Enhancer thread because it was directly related to Enhancers - specifically, how Sainthood was the best Enhancer belief because everyone was beelining Basil. The actual Reformation Beliefs themselves are almost entirely fine.

 

[crdvis16]

I also agree that Jesuit Education's faith costs for the buildings are exceedingly high. Perhaps if I had gone Fealty for the building cost reduction it wouldn't have been so bad, but in my game I didn't faith purchase a single one and just benefited from the +science instead.

 

[Owlbebach]

You need to factor city states.

That doesn't change things much, just imagine that average civ has 9-10 cities instead of 7-8.

Reformation beliefs are pretty well balanced against each other, other than maybe Glory of God. If there is a problem with refromations, its that as a group they are too powerful. They all play directly into a win condition, and not having one makes it really hard to beat someone who does. Compare to founders, which while nice to have, you can certainly win without.

Thats why i was saying that Jesuit and Masses faith/culture on building should be removed and faith cost reduced.
For Glory of God - i think its pretty balanced with very low yields it has. Maybe faith costs should be increased for those Great People that you do not get via policy trees you have.

 

[Workerspam]

Thats why i was saying that Jesuit and Masses faith/culture on building should be removed and faith cost reduced.

As others have already stated, removing the bonus science/culture would remove what some of us consider the primary benefits of the belief. I can churn out Universities and Public Schools in 4-8 turns in most cities in most of my games as it is (half that if I invest). I wouldn't use a Reformation Belief in most games to save a few turns of production/gold when there are other beliefs that offer long term benefits that aren't available any other way.

Reducing the bonus science/culture and the faith cost would make it less interesting to me but I could see how it could increase the utility for Tradition and other low production civs. I think it's fine as is but Crazy G's +3/50% reduction in faith also seems reasonable.

 

[Owlbebach]

As others have already stated, removing the bonus science/culture would remove what some of us consider the primary benefits of the belief. I can churn out Universities and Public Schools in 4-8 turns in most cities in most of my games as it is (half that if I invest). I wouldn't use a Reformation Belief in most games to save a few turns of production/gold when there are other beliefs that offer long term benefits that aren't available any other way.

4-8 turns? Public School is 1000 hammers if i'm not mistaken. Are you saying that you have ~125-250 hammers when you build those? You either ignore them and build BOTH Factory and Train Statin before them (which i can buy, but you don't need Jesuit at all in this case) or those numbers are just wrong.

When i pursue Scientific Victory (which should be the case when you want Jesuit Education) - i usually have building time for Public Schools of ~20 turns

EDIT: example: https://i.imgur.com/XnHJwlS.jpg take a look at number of turns left, all of them are invested cause at that time, thanks to my spy, i was swimming in money.
Now if you pursue scientific victory - you take Education even before Chemistry, and in addition to that you save up your faith to purchase all of the, By doing so you get Public Schools ~30-40 turns earlier than usual, same with Laboratories. You can't argue that it is not significant enough to justify taking Jesuit as your Reformation.