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(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Wonders

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 23, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 6, 2018.
  1. Yes

    93.3%
  2. No

    6.7%
  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Chieftain

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    I don't think we should discuss it here. It might take hundreds of messages and is very far away from topic
     
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    If many informed people said that they really enjoyed eating poop, perhaps. I'm not advocating you eat poop. Point stands, shut up about oracle or build it. We can look at things on paper all day, but you need to play with something to truly understand its power.

    I personally don't have the arrogance to come on the forum and say that something is a piece of crap without at least trying to use it once, or using something similar.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  3. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Chieftain

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    I didn't say that Oracle is a piece of crap. I said it about Great Library and i think so. And in case you didn't notiece i'd like to draw your attention to the fact that it is a piece of crap, but not because of what it grants you, it is crap because of how much it costs you. Very low return on investment needed. Better to do something else

    I said that Oracle is mediocre. I actually do build it from time to time. I never targeted Oracle because it is a part of a gameplan. It was because i want Temples or Education or something lilke that and Oracle is a nice extra. If anything Oracle deserves only a small buff, but i'm okay with it as it is
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  4. SupTo

    SupTo Chieftain

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    Owl, I really wouldn't consider the Oracle 'mediocre' and am curious as to why you say that. I mean, the minimum 500 science is enough for 1-3 free techs and the culture should be like half a social policy for the time. On top of that it significantly reduces illiteracy in ALL cities. And the free temple is just icing on the cake..
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I would build the Great Library if I could. The only reason I don't build it is because the AI beats me to it. It has good yields and its cheap. On lower difficulties people seem to really like it; its an iconic wonder. IDK what we would even change. It already has really nice yields. Not building it because the AI gets there first doesn't mean its bad or needs a buff.

    Also it can help you build Oracle and Oracle is really good. I think its way better than the Parthenon. If you are about to type that the Parthenon is crap, just stop.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  6. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Chieftain

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    In fact i might reconsider about Oracle because i didn't remember that it gives so much Illiteracy reduction. It is quite impactful. Maybe it was introduced recently, cause i haven't played for months. Parthenon is good. I am the type of person that loves to debate and to prove my point of view, but I'm not the one who argues for the sake of arguing. I can and i love to admit that i was wrong. Maybe Oracle is the case, i'm not sure.
    Same as with God of Craftsmen i think its main weakness is not yields but the technology that you need to unlock. You have so much stuff to do that early that you just can't go for it. However the yiels in my opinion are also not that good, especially since Amphitheater was buffed to have more Great Writing slots
     
  7. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Chieftain

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    Reducing needs in all cities is, for me, one of the most important aspects of selecting which wonders to work towards, which makes the Oracle even more appealing to me.
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    So your problem is that it's bad not because it's bad but because everyone wants it and it's on a tech you don't like?

    That doesn't seem right. I don't think the AI rushing writing is good in all cases, but it can be very good. I also think that by the numbers the wonder is just fine.

    If we wanted to change it going from a free tech to a flat amount of science would be smart, because then you don't need to worry about only unlocking a starting tech. I don't think we need to do that though.
     
    tu_79 and CrazyG like this.
  9. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Chieftain

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    Yep. But i think it might have some buff too. Maybe something like a free Great Work of Writing
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Are you going to build it either way? If the answer is no, then isn't this discussion kind of pointless?
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I'd prefer the free tech because it keeps GL and Oracle more different. Balance is nice, but so is heterogenous wonders
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  12. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Chieftain

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    I am sure that if it is impactful enough i'll try to get it when it will fit the strategy. I don't know particular case, but i'm sure there can be some. For example I remember building it very long time ago for the Great Work slots when playing Tourism
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Your suggestion just doesn't seem to address your issue with it. If it had a great work, you still need to unlock writing to get it.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  14. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Chieftain

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    I'm not saying i can't rush for Writing. I only say that there should be something that is worth rushing there. Something that will be worth giving up on Forge+Barracks+Arrena thing. And i'm not even sure that it should be a Great Writing, that was quite a random suggestion, i didn't think about it more than 2 minutes. it is just something that is thematic. My first though was Great Scientist - related stuff, but it would break Babylon. This is hard because you really don't want to postpone the main early production boost. MAybe it should be something like extra production on Libraries for example.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The fact that the wonder discussion is so combative highlights-to me-that the balance is pretty spot on here.

    G
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I still don’t get Palace of Westminster... it gives so many votes, I just don’t get why everyone else seems totally okay with PoW giving more votes than a level 3 freedom tenet. Why are people so opposed to the idea of softening up this wonder a bit? Lower the votes from 3 for 8 to 2 for 8, and then give some instant boost and yields to compensate
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  17. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Chieftain

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    For the record: I voted yes in the poll. I might be unsatisfied with Library but overal it is it a good spot
    This will change stuff by 1 vote on Standard map. DOes it really make any difference? However might be a bit better for 43 civs stuff
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    1 vote can make a huge difference
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Considering the thread is locked, it is in fact quite pointless.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Yes. That's why I said it. Also, isn't standard setup 16 city states? So that's 2 votes
     

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