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(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Wonders

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 23, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 6, 2018.
  1. Yes

    93.3%
  2. No

    6.7%
  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    My bad. For some reason i though about number of players, not City-States. I don't know why, but it was quite late and i was sleepy, probably thats why
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    By the way, frogs taste like chicken.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  3. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Not exactly. At least those that i tried. They have a quite a lot in common but they have a more "slippery" texture and a smell of water, seaweed and river mud
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  4. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    What about swapping the free tech and flat science on the wonders? a free tech could be more impactful if you've already researched philosophy. maybe add +2 faith/+2 science to the wonder to make up for it?
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Re: what we were talking about for a change to freedom media culture and the CN tower wonder, what happens if you set numfreegreatworks to a number that is higher than the number of GW slots on the actual building? Will the extra GWs be added to whichever slots it can find on empire?

    So like, what if CN tower gave 5 free GW music, but had no slots for GW of music? Would they just not appear, or would they just show up somewhere?
     
  6. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I agree re: CN Tower, when it's up for grabs, I almost always already have Broadcast towers in all my cities, so I usually build it mostly to deny it for the AI.

    A question re: Taj Mahal -> it seem lackluster compared to other policy tree finishers. If you go fealty, you usually have no problems with religious dissent, so that part isn't really useful, and the 1 GAP per 2 pop in the capital means you're getting 15 GAP in your 30 pop capital, which might over the course of the game amount to one or two GA, which isn't a lot...
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    That amounts to less than one Golden Age, unless by Renaissance era you still haven't earned a single golden age via happiness.
     
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  8. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Yeah, I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt, but perhaps around turn 300 you get a GA that you'd otherwise fall short a few hundred GA points. In any case, I think it's a really bad wonder even on its own, much less as a Policy tree wonder. I don't build it even if I'm the only one that took Fealty.
     
  9. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I think the Red Fort is pretty forgettable. I'd only ever want it if I was about to lose a city and if I'm about to lose a city I can't build it.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  10. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I almost forgot about Red Fort, i just never understood why to build it.

    AS for the Tadj Mahal - i didn't build it for a very long time, but for some reason i was under impression that it provides a longer Golden Age? I mean like a 20-turns long golden age instead of 10. I'm not sure why i thought that, anyone can confirm? Maybe i'm an idiot
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    With the recent Arsenal change, this wonder has got new life. Having a 3 range city long before any has artillery is a big deal. Further, with the great engineer you are basically getting a discount on your next wonder. Give it a new look.
     
  12. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I feel like if even if it was 2 GAP per pop (60 GAP in a 30 pop capital) it wouldn't be that crazy.
     
  13. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I don't know why it gives GAP at all. The other trees give Wonders that sync really nicely with what they do - Artistry is for Great Works, and has the Louvre; Statecraft is for City-State Influence, and has the Palace of Westminster. How does the Taj Mahal assist Fealty? And why does it reduce Religious Needs? If you went Fealty you almost certainly have no trouble with Religious Needs.

    I honestly feel you could just reboot it as a concept completely. Scrap everything it currently does and start again.
     
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  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Wonders are technically locked. Now I could see a change to a few due to the happiness system changes, but the Taj wasn't really affected by that.
     
  15. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Honestly there are like 40 Wonders, I can't remember them all in my head at any one point and I do think the vast majority of Wonders are great. If you said to me "considered as a whole topic, are Wonders fine?", I'd say yes. That wouldn't stop me nitpicking over one or two. Taj Mahal is particularly notable because it is the Fealty finisher, and therefore has Policy overlap.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The only wonder I'm tweaking is CN, largely because changes to tech progress and timing have made its bonus worthless (no one really needs free broadcast towers at that point).
     
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  17. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Red Fort adds about 50 CS to the City that builds it (30 from the Wonder, 20 from the Free Arsenal). Just there to be annoying for whoever has to fight the City. I like building it just to deny it to my opponents.
     
  18. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I think Red Fort also gives an Engineer, so it pays for half of itself. If you count the Arsenal, then almost the entirety is paid for.
     
  19. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    First of all it increases cost of other more important wonders. 2nd, how are you going to use this amazing range? Are you gonna build it in a city on the border - in this case it will most likely take too much time for building it.
    But for the record, i'm okay with both Taj and Red Fort to be left as is. I never had them in my game and anyway
     
    Enrico Swagolo likes this.
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    The thread can say locked, but its not changing the fact that Red Fort is a bad wonder. The lack of conversation didn't mean wonders were balanced, this thread probably just got buried.

    Red Fort is bad. An arsenal 1 tech early? Look out, in the exact situation where my opponent has a unit 3 tiles away from this city, but not 2, and I have not discovered rifling, I can deal..................20 damage to it? 30 with tradition? If that exact situation happened 5 turns in a row, that wonder has impacted the game by........killing 1 unit?

    Are there really situations where that extra damage from cities is comparable in value to +10% culture in all cities? Or +25% science in your capital? Or 50% golden age length?

    I consider myself really aggressive, but I still like the other defensive wonders. Great Wall and Himeji Castle are both very impactful wonders that I strive to get. Red Fort sure isn't. The free engineer isn't enough.
     
    Bromar1, LukaSlovenia29 and Owlbebach like this.

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