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(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Wonders

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 23, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 6, 2018.
  1. Yes

    93.3%
  2. No

    6.7%
  1. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    Honestly don't think the ranged unit production being global would break anything anyway. If a wonder is already weak you can just add power to it, you don't need to take anything away.
     
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  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Global unit production modifiers don’t exist; they’re new code. Many have tried, many have failed to make a case for Artemis and the Great Altar reformation wonder getting global unitcombat production modifiers. Down this road lies only sorrow.
     
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  3. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete.
     
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  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    If the code does not appear in our records, it does not exist.
     
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  5. Legen

    Legen King

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    Well, you could consider Artemis to give a promotion to ranged units, akin to how Alhambra does for melee-oriented ones.

    Alternatively, Artemis could give bonus yields to Herbalists in the empire.

    I'm indifferent about this wonder, I think the +10% :c5food: food plus free Herbalist is decent enough on its own for an Ancient era wonder.
     
    Bromar1, pineappledan and vyyt like this.
  6. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Ranged line promotion sounds like a good idea.
     
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  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Just noting:

    1) Alhambra is an Authority only wonder, literally a benefit for a heavy focused war player.
    2) That extra bump is huge for Alhambra, earlier in the game its even more so.

    I don't mind an adjustment, but I think the consequences of this kind of change would be more significant than is warranted. A small static bump is better to me (if needed at all).
     
  8. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I think Artemis with a ranged promotion would be a pain to balance not only as a wonder, but it'd also make melee vs ranged balance indirectly worse. It's better to buff it in another way, if it needs it. Even a simple +2 :c5faith: because it's a Temple can do it.
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    The Statue of Zeus's 1 :c5faith: is a big deal, that buff would make me look at the wonder more seriously.

    I find the herbalist awkward, but I think it does need a free something otherwise its far too slow.

    If you wanted to make it more military focused, you could get a free composite bowman. Just one shouldn't be too strong. A promotion to all archers forever is a big deal
     
  10. Legen

    Legen King

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    That depends on the promotion chosen. If it is just a Morale, which is already provided by the Heroic Epic, then Artemis just offers a second military city meant for archers. If it's akin to Statue of Zeus, which provides a promotion that doesn't affect unit vs unit combat strength, then it won't affect melee vs ranged balance.

    Given that Artemis is the goddess of hunt, it would make sense for a buff to all Camp improvements as well.
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    One free composite bowman is quite interesting. If you focus on military tradition so much that you can build the wonder, chances are that you did not research hunting, so a ranged unit (and a good one) when you have none is welcomed.
     
  12. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Could we make a Building, say the Herbalist, give Unit Production Modifiers?
     
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  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Probably a better place for this discussion.
    Right, but does it do enough, for a building with that kind of :c5production:cost? I don't think it does. The Heroic epic gives every civ a free GG and a 10% CS boost to all units in that city in Classical for a fraction of the cost. This is an Industrial Era World Wonder. It doesn't stack up well against comparable wonders like Alhambra or St. Basil's from 2 eras earlier.
    ... I don't know what you're talking about here. The Brandenburg Gate currently gives XP to faith purchased units and mercenaries. I don't know why you're bringing this up except perhaps to say that if the wonder were changed to reduce the XP penalty on purchased units, it wouldn't affect Zealotry and mercenaries. Yes, I am aware of those. So what?
    I said nothing about any wonder being too niche. I said that Brandenburg is weak and bad. Niche wonders are not a problem; Cristo Redentor and CN are dynamite wonders for a CV, and the only way you could say Oracle is weak is that you have simply never built it. Even if you are pouring all your effort into warmongering, Brandenburg’s niche, it wouldn’t be worth the hammers.

    Brandenburg gives the same amount of XP as a standard military building in a single city. A useful comparison is Assyria's Royal Library, which gives up to 45XP in all cities. Aside from that, Brandenburg gives a free GG, which at that point of the game is probably not a huge bonus. If you have been warring, you probably have generated 6-7 GGs by that point, including the free GG that you (and every other civ) got from the HEpic 3 Eras earlier. Ignoring any balance concerns, this HEpic change really hurts Brandenburg's uniqueness. I wasn't excited for this wonder even before a national wonder gave one of its bonuses earlier and for cheaper.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
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  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Brandenburg gives a big pile of supply, right? Supply is really valuable, especially if you want both an army and a navy, the GG is an extra citadel and you are hopefully close to taking the Lebrensaum policy.

    I think Brandenburg is a lot better than other wonders, like the Pentagon.
     
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  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Yes, 10 flat supply. I would say that is the most valuable part of the wonder right now. An extra citadel is only valuable if you need an extra citadel, and that certainly hasnt been the case in my past few domination victories. Lebensraum is a tier 2 ideology, and I usually unlock Brandenburg while I'm only 3/4 of the way through my 3rd policy tree. If I am waiting for the lebensraum synergy, then I'm going to be waiting 50-70 turns.
    Pentagon is a strange wonder, because its main benefit is lowering unit upgrade :c5gold:cost. That doesn't really contribute to any victory type, and maximizing its benefit would require that you have allowed many of your units to obsolete, which is very unlikely if you're an Imperialism player (Pentagon being the imperialism finisher). You already get -33%:c5gold:upgrade cost from the Imperialism scaler, so making unlocking a wonder that effectively doubles the policy scaler isn't particularly interesting. Lastly, an atomic wonder should probably give some instant bonus, wouldn't you say? Bletchley gives you a free research lab, 2 spies, and levels up all your spies. Bletchley also boosts 2 advanced spy actions while pentagon only boosts 1. All told, the Rationalism finisher wonder is a far superior wonder, and I would rather have it in almost any game situation.

    The Pentagon's biggest fault is that it is the Imperialism finisher, but any Imperialism player won't be able to justify spending that many Atomic Era :c5production:Hammers on a wonder rather than more units. If Pentagon can't augment existing units or give you more free units, then no player will choose it over something that provides greater benefit towards their actual victory type.

    Possible changes to Brandenburg Gate:
    • Either make the +15XP global, or give at least +30XP in the city
    • Give all existing military units +15XP on construction of the wonder
    • Reduce the penalty for military units purchased with :c5gold:Gold to 3/4XP (Also reduce Draft Registration to 3/4 XP on unit purchase. Wonder/Ideology Synergy)
    Possible changes to Pentagon:
    • Make Pentagon the "Air Unit" wonder, like how Alhambra is the land melee unit wonder, and Great Lighthouse is the naval unit wonder:
      • Drop the -33%:c5gold: upgrade cost (comes too late, redundant with Imperialism's scaler)
      • Free Airport in this city
      • 2 Free Bombers in this city (fill that plane capacity)
      • +2 plane capacity to all carriers and cities ("Fleet Carrier" promotion)
    • Make Pentagon the "Recon Unit" wonder (paratroopers/specialforces/X-COMs)
      • Free Military Base in this city
      • 3 Free Paratroopers appear near city (like a Borobodur of death)
      • Recon Units on Empire receive new "Urban Warfare" Promotion
        • +25% vs armor units and Cities
        • +1 Movement
    • Make Pentagon the unit supply/maintenance hybrid wonder
      • Free Military Base in this city
      • 3 Free Paratroopers appear near city
      • Reduce the :c5gold: upgrade cost reduction to -15% (redundant with Imperialism's scaler; shouldn't be the main event; same number as unit maintenance reduction)
      • -15%:c5gold: Unit Maintenance cost on Empire
    At the very least, adding some sort of free building to Pentagon would help justify its :c5production: cost, and give at least a small instant boost, which the Pentagon desperately needs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I agree that The Pentagon is just useless. It allows you to get units to upgrade for just 1 gold, which is a cool novelty I guess (I always have plenty of gold with imperialism anyways).

    I still think Brandenburg is good, there are just a lot of situations it is very relevant. I actually consider researching that tech a lot earlier specifically for Brandeburg. I guess the Heroic Epic is better, but I really think it should just give GG points instead of a free GG.

    IDK about Bletchley Park being that good. Over the last few months I have a 100% win rate with imperialism, and every single loss I remember, I had rationalism (who takes industry?). Granted there are already some changes addressing these issues on the newest version, which I haven't had a chance to play.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
  17. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    I disagree about Pentagon. Yes you will usually have a lot of gold as a conqueror, but this allows you to have your cake and eat it. I was able to keep a ~100+ supply military fully upgraded all the way through Death Robots while also investing in almost every building possible in a ~30 city empire. You end up saving a lot of gold throughout the eras, and the utility of being able to instantly upgrade your entire military with every tech unlock is significant in keeping ahead. You don't need to invest hammers in units if they just never die due to being kept fully upgraded.

    I think Bletchley isn't that great, why do you need more tech for the tree that already gets tons of techs? If you're going for a science victory you probably need production (Order) or gold (Freedom) to get your spaceship parts, or you need something to push the game long enough to win.
     
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  18. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Surprised/ Disappointed that Brandenburg does not even come with a Free Military Academy. I do like the idea of giving XP to current Units. In fact we could theme Brandenburg around having Unit XP. We could move the Upgrade Discount here.

    I like the idea of making the Pentagon an Air Unit Theme. Airports and Military Bases both benefit Air Units (Military Bases provide them a :c5production: bonus). I would rather see the Pentagon give a Military Base or both.
     
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  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think Brandenburg Gate's policy prereqs could be lowered by 1. Its the one wonder I find that I am often 2-3 policies behind when I get to that tech, so it might be just a bit too policy expensive.
     
  20. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Does anyone else feel that the Alhambra is fairly weak right now? Back when it used to give Drill it was great, then it became a little OP (maybe) when giving mounted units that double attack (with first attack being ranged) ability and now it got over-nerfed, IMO. It's supposed to be the land military wonder of the game (Authority finisher, after all) but the best thing about it right now is the 10% Culture boost, IMO. This is because the promotion is now pretty weak (only 15% attack and the 50% chance to retreat is kinda unnecessary and even undesired, I think) and it isn't even kept on upgrade so only very sporadically will units in my army even have it.

    I'd like for the promotion to be reworked to something better; either giving something stronger instead, like just going back to Drill, for example (was great IMO), or at least making it stick around on upgrade and replacing the withdraw chance with extra heal on kill or something (would need to stack with the existing heal on kill from Authority).
     

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