Logistics or range?
- Thread starter Dehli
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Yeah, it's kind of a tossup. On anything with 4 move or better, Logistics wins hands down. This enables you to move in, shoot twice, move out. Horse Archers and all boats fall into this category.
On anything with 2 move is where it gets iffy. If you're losing units due to bombardments, then obviously 1 range is better. But if you're capable of killing targets (and this includes cities) in one salvo from all your units, then Logistics wins there. You kinda need to feel it out. Clearly losing a unit with 60+XP is suboptimal, so do what you can to keep them alive.
On anything with 2 move is where it gets iffy. If you're losing units due to bombardments, then obviously 1 range is better. But if you're capable of killing targets (and this includes cities) in one salvo from all your units, then Logistics wins there. You kinda need to feel it out. Clearly losing a unit with 60+XP is suboptimal, so do what you can to keep them alive.
I like to have different units with range and others with logistics. There are only so many good spots to fire at range, so having some further in with logistics is handy and these units level to range fast because they get experience twice per turn and a 3rd when fired at.
Are you able to get traction building gatlings? March then cover makes sense for them, if you can keep them alive. But I cant keep them alive if I use them. The AI loves to hit them, so they go from 100 to 0 in one turn. Not much opportunity to cycle units out then! Maybe cover first, but dont actually attack until cover2? Very frustrating unit that I want to love, but have not been able to work. I have the same problem with machine guns. As far as land units go, I end up building nothing but AA and artillery (until GDR, if the game goes that long).
I find it easier to get both if I do range first. He can hammer from afar with virtual impunity, so that's exactly what I do, until logistics. That's the nice thing about this: that once you get one, it doesn't take too long to get the other, too.
For non-warmongerers, though, logistics might be better. They don't build that many units. I tend to have a lot of units, so I'm getting +1 attack anyway with range, if you think about it. There are only so many hexes 1- and 2-away you can attack from.
Keshiks of course are an exception, since they can use the two attacks per turn to get range quickly.
For non-warmongerers, though, logistics might be better. They don't build that many units. I tend to have a lot of units, so I'm getting +1 attack anyway with range, if you think about it. There are only so many hexes 1- and 2-away you can attack from.
Keshiks of course are an exception, since they can use the two attacks per turn to get range quickly.
JeSuisNapoleon
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For bows --> Bazookas I like logistics
For catapults -->Rocket artillery I like range.
Why? its a toss up. Logistics *WILL* get you more XP in a hurry.
I am already trying to keep my siege weapons far away from city defenses, and enemy units. Range helps this pattern.
For the Gatling guns, I almost always end up using them as front line defensive units, so logistics works. They will get range+1 (or march) pretty quickly after that anyways.
For catapults -->Rocket artillery I like range.
Why? its a toss up. Logistics *WILL* get you more XP in a hurry.
I am already trying to keep my siege weapons far away from city defenses, and enemy units. Range helps this pattern.
For the Gatling guns, I almost always end up using them as front line defensive units, so logistics works. They will get range+1 (or march) pretty quickly after that anyways.
Considering siege units are useless until dynamite and artillery you will be using the archer line which will eventually upgrade to gatling guns which in itself is a prime argument for getting range asap to make sure you have it. Then you have the fact that with range you can pound whatever you want with no fear of being hit so on the advance the only damage you should ever take is from your horseman who rushes in to take the city and on defense you can destroy their units before they even get close to yours.
The argument that logistics will level you up faster is kind of valid so you can have both faster but in reality it usually means you put your ranged unit in danger and spend more time healing than they do leveling up.
Off the top of my head you get 3 xp for attacking and 2 xp for defending so on a one to one basis a unit can get 8 xp in a turn (take 2 shot then take damage) then spend 4 turns healing being generous and assuming a medic near by so an average of 2 xp per turn if you take logistics.
If you take range you can fire every turn and get 3 xp so 3 xp per turn.
That really assumes that you are training your troops rather than fighting and by that i mean DoW a CS to farm xp or leaving enemy cities uncaptured to deliberately farm xp.
Yes you can in theory use a meat shield to take damage but you need to get them deliberately hurt in the first place which also leave them vulnerable to being destroyed unless they move out to heal also so against a half decent city with a ranged defender you probably need 2 or 3 meat shields to cycle in and out and make sure their damaged at all times which apart from the micromanagement of doing so and the danger they could be destroyed especially if the enemy bring a unit in to finish them off or spawn a unit in their city it also costs extra maintenance and extra gold/hammers to build them in the first place over the single horse/fast unit you need to spot and take the city with range.
If you actually fighting then logistics can be better sometimes but really you should already have range through training your troops in the early game before you start a real war and then you can war all you like while being virtually untouchable.
The argument that logistics will level you up faster is kind of valid so you can have both faster but in reality it usually means you put your ranged unit in danger and spend more time healing than they do leveling up.
Off the top of my head you get 3 xp for attacking and 2 xp for defending so on a one to one basis a unit can get 8 xp in a turn (take 2 shot then take damage) then spend 4 turns healing being generous and assuming a medic near by so an average of 2 xp per turn if you take logistics.
If you take range you can fire every turn and get 3 xp so 3 xp per turn.
That really assumes that you are training your troops rather than fighting and by that i mean DoW a CS to farm xp or leaving enemy cities uncaptured to deliberately farm xp.
Yes you can in theory use a meat shield to take damage but you need to get them deliberately hurt in the first place which also leave them vulnerable to being destroyed unless they move out to heal also so against a half decent city with a ranged defender you probably need 2 or 3 meat shields to cycle in and out and make sure their damaged at all times which apart from the micromanagement of doing so and the danger they could be destroyed especially if the enemy bring a unit in to finish them off or spawn a unit in their city it also costs extra maintenance and extra gold/hammers to build them in the first place over the single horse/fast unit you need to spot and take the city with range.
If you actually fighting then logistics can be better sometimes but really you should already have range through training your troops in the early game before you start a real war and then you can war all you like while being virtually untouchable.
Logistics on mobile units makes sense, but I liked cromangus logic in that other thread for bow units, I will be experimenting with that next time I don’t spawn in a forest.
Range on early siege I can understand as that setup turn is really harsh, and means that logistics is wasted that first turn (not that people are making this point for bow units). By why range on arty you are building new?
Gatling vs melee is good, but I have to keep them a hex away from cities, and still bombers take them out in one turn anyway. What might I be doing wrong? Why would you build machine guns when you could be building AA?
Range on early siege I can understand as that setup turn is really harsh, and means that logistics is wasted that first turn (not that people are making this point for bow units). By why range on arty you are building new?
Gatling vs melee is good, but I have to keep them a hex away from cities, and still bombers take them out in one turn anyway. What might I be doing wrong? Why would you build machine guns when you could be building AA?
Ryika
Lazy Wannabe Artista
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That's actually your personal preference and not even possible to do in every game (starting next to a warmonger who declares war at turn 60?), really not something every player "should" have - imho... farming a city state is a really cheesy way of getting an advantage and kind of lame. Just watch Marbozirs current Mongolia-LP as a comparison, probably one of the most interesting let's plays I've ever watched (a lot of his LPs are fun-to-watch, war-oriented games), no exp-farming, just Civ-vs-Civ-Wars.. and he's still doing just fine.
Before industrialization (gatling guns) I will 99% of the time get Logistics. Double-tapping is just my warmongering preference, and it does an amazing job of softening anything up. Not only that, but I tend to have some meat-shields available to take the brunt of the damage.
For siege/naval units it tends to be the opposite. I like to have the range to allow for safer bombardments
For siege/naval units it tends to be the opposite. I like to have the range to allow for safer bombardments
I go with two shots per turn most of the time except where frigates are concerned. They get range with only 60 xp and can out-range everything else for a long time. But aside from that, I like logistics because firing twice per turn has the nice side effect of getting you double experience from then on. That is one heck of a bonus.
Thanks Winsling, that was an interesting read. This thread has mostly just opinion without much exposition and to the contrary conclusion I got from that earlier discussion of Logistics vs +1 range.
So here is my attempt at a TLDR summary:
tommynt: logistics, always.
Cromagnus: +1 range, usually
And here is the math argument that convinced me, and was not refuted before that thread died:
So I plan to try going range first for my next few games, and see if it feels just as good, because my habit has been for the logistics first.
Ryika
Lazy Wannabe Artista
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Actually, Tommynt DID refute that argument - long before it was even made:
I mean "bad luck"? What the..? Cities don't shoot at random, a player can literally make it attack exactly the unit that he wants to be attacked. So the "argument" could be to go for range if you don't have enough experience to know what you're doing and how to manipulate the battlefield, but as an argument for efficiency? If done right, Logistic will conquer faster, earn exp faster without losing more units... so all this argument really does is bringing in the idea that it might be easier to start with range.
Not always. I've had 80% life melee units passed over for full life archers before. I don't know why it happens, I don't know what triggers it, and I can't reproduce it every time, but it DOES happen from time to time, and it absolutely wrecks your plans when you lose a 75+ xp ranged unit like that.
Ryika
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From what I can tell that's what happens if the strength-difference is just too high, which happens if you use melee units that are a tier higher than your archers or if you plant your melee on a tile with high defensive bonus and your archer in a swamp or something.
Never had that happen in any other situation.
Never had that happen in any other situation.
The Pilgrim
Deity
This topic has been discussed to death, to be honest. Most of the time logistics will win. If not for range bug, we could weight different pros and cons. But since it's there and most likely will always be there, range is severely handicapped.
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