Lonely Hearts 4 - Roosevelt

@ all the participants of LHCs

There has been some requests of lower dificulties LHCs, so maybe in the next LHC we should make a map and set various levels of dificulty ( from maybe Noble to maybe Emperor/Immortal ( its easy to do that: just get a isolated save, go to the WB, save it as a WB save and load it: It will ask for the dificulty level. From there make the necessary copies ) .
And someone have a idea for the next leader? Until now we have played leaders with traits that we hope that will help us to cope isolation ( except the agressive trait of Shaka ( that was virtually non tested because no one tried a Dom victory out of that ( a shame IMHO : the map was very good for Dom ))). Maybe we should try something more exotic: maybe a Char or a Spiritual leader. Opinions?

I love the idea of having the same map played and being able to select your difficulty level. If we can post noble/prince/monarch/emperor versions (does anyone really want to play an immortal isolated start?) it would be great.

What about Brennus?
 
What about Brennus?

Brennus traits are excelent for war, but Cha and Spi have their uses in isolation and they don't lose steam as more modern ages came ( they will still be useful for a late Dom/ conquest victory ). About the UU ... meh, and the UB :mad: ( IMHO the worst of Warlors ). But will be a fun leader to try , most surely.
 
I would still build the GS early and use them to secure the continent. With the cha bonus they can still pick up a few promos (like guerilla III) which will carry over for future upgrades.

I've gotten so many isolated starts on my own lately, I'm starting to feel cursed. I always want to push for sea exploration at the expense of liberalism and I think its always the wrong choice.
 
Spoiler :


Well, I was merrily plugging along building settlers, courthouses, granaries, and missionaries (using a Confucian shrine to keep my research rate at no lower than 70% despite the expansion). I feel pretty good--I was into eductation, leaving philosophy for a lightbulb I hoped to get soon, and filling up the continent as shown:

LonelyFDR1120map.jpg


When, in 1120, up pops Huayna Capac, who has been madly teching and has at least eight techs on me (he already has education, so I don't know what he may have beyond that). It seems that the rapid expansion has been eating into my economy too much. Most of the techs are low-level techs I have bypassed, so trading should catch me up quickly--if I have anything worth trading once I encounter the other AIs. But I think my isolation strategy wasn't good enough. I have around 100 total beakers with my poorly developed cottages, and only a handful of cities near their caps. The cottageable south was last to be developed (I still plan on planting two more cities), and I should have probably made it first.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Roosevelt_AD-1120.CivWarlordsSave

 
I played this until 1880 Ad now, i took out Ramesses, Huyna and WangKon sofar. I have 45% of the land, have to take out Saladin or Hannibal/Napoleon next. I can do this from the base i have now where i have some 25 bombers and 60 other units but it might be more fun to do it the way Invisible Stalk described, boats filled with navy seals accompanied by bombing destroyers.

I noticed that if you go domination it's better to plan for it in advance. I played till 1200 ad, then decided to go domination, i had to build /draft all the units needed ,i had no globe theater so i had to draft from quite a few cities and had to put the core cities to work now to build the units. If i'd go domination from the start i'd have build cities even sooner and i would have started building cats and maces in them. I could then have upgraded around 1200-1300 by putting science to 0 for a time. Ironically i won the economics race but i had only 4 axes and 10 military police warriors without promotions to upgrade.

With all this drafting i managed to get Ramesses down 1660 AD which seemed a reasonable time, my empire was really an unhappy shambles after that and it took to +/- 1800 before cities had regrown. Took to 1850 to get the last needed tech (flight) then invaded, others AI's were not to helpful trading techs.
 
@ Glassoid

As you can see we are still testing ideas, but I would say:

1- Focus on the economical techs ( CS , currency and maybe Calendar ), develop your land and run away from the temptation of beelining Optics for contacting other civs ( your economy will be in far worse shape in the contact moment than if you developed better )
2-Make a sustainable REX ( 50/60 % ) and pick the best spots ( you'll have time until the others grab Astro ). Look eagerly for good cottagable land and/or nice food sites for specialists.
3- You need big cities to balance your isolation. HR is a good friend. You'll also need all the :health: you can get. Do not overwhip ( maybe only whipping settlers and workers and a ocasional building )
4- Unless you want to go cultural ( and maybe even there.... ), found only 1/2 religions top . You'll want a more religious divided world ( more wars, less tech trading, possibility of a backdoor for a later invasion.... ), it protects you better
5- Beeline Liberalism. Even if you loose the race, Free religion helps with the research and puts you under the radar scope of the AI ( you'll not have the religion minuses , so less probabilities on a war)
6- Prepare a defensive fleet ASAP ( self explainable )
7-Forget your pride and cave in to the AI demands ( you'll be probably weak until the Industrial age, so don't mess too much around ). Even worse, give the AI all of your spare resourses or trade them. Get friends, but always try to stir a war overseas.
8- If you survived this far, now is a good time to think how to win. IF you have a nice chunk of good land, Diplo may be a solution ( big population ). Space may be a nice idea too (in that case beeline computers and spam labs; Internet is a good help too). Or you can take a tour de force and try a late Dom victory ( tech until the desired unit, shut down research and $rush (US is your friend ). Numbers over quality )
9- Enviromentalism is your friend in isolation ( you'll need big cities and in isolation :health: is your limitating factor ( remember that HR allows you unlimited :) and that there are much more ways to :) than to :health: in Civ IV )
10- Nukes are your friend too ( maybe you'll need to stop a launch in extremis )

There are no wonders that are needed to win in isolation ( some will help, but they would help too in non isolated starts : Henge, GW ,Pyramids, GL,.... ). In fact, probably you won't have even a chance of trying to build some ( like most of the medieval ones ) :Normally it is better to focus in more/better cities than in wonder races.

This is just a catch up of the LHCs so far. I hope it helps ( and everyone is free to add something I could had forgotten of course ;) )

P.S Maybe someone should write something in the Srategy Articles section about what was learned so far in the LHCs. Volunteers?
 
@ Glassoid

As you can see we are still testing ideas, but I would say:

1- Focus on the economical techs ( CS , currency and maybe Calendar ), develop your land and run away from the temptation of beelining Optics for contacting other civs ( your economy will be in far worse shape in the contact moment than if you developed better )

True, col and especially civil service are essential whatever you do. Calender depends on the map. I usually don't research currency that early, the extra domestic trade route doesn't do it for me. Non isolated currency gives you the possibility to get (a lot of) money from others, not now.



2-Make a sustainable REX ( 50/60 % ) and pick the best spots ( you'll have time until the others grab Astro ). Look eagerly for good cottagable land and/or nice food sites for specialists.

Very important, you won't conquer neighbours anytime soon so you'll have to do all the hard work yourself. The sooner you start with this the longer these cities have time to grow to something worthwhile. I think it's worth it to sacrifice some research for this purpose. See also invisible stalks approach in this thread, he went domination and set all his cards on rex not caring too much about research rates or liberalism with very good results. I did some rexing like this in the lonely fred thread, was behind but caught up surprisingly easy when all astro got in and alll my cities picked up trade routes like no tomorrow.


3- You need big cities to balance your isolation. HR is a good friend. You'll also need all the :health: you can get. Do not overwhip ( maybe only whipping settlers and workers and a ocasional building )

HR is always good but in normal games it's always delicate where you'll want these units (HR or attack) , isolated it's even better, if possible avoid hunting, i popped it from a hut this game :thumbsdown:, i immediately stopped connecting the copper to get some warriors build.


4- Unless you want to go cultural ( and maybe even there.... ), found only 1/2 religions top . You'll want a more religious divided world ( more wars, less tech trading, possibility of a backdoor for a later invasion.... ), it protects you better

Absolutely, you need one religion for happiness ,try to actively avoid founding the others. they're almost useless.


5- Beeline Liberalism. Even if you loose the race, Free religion helps with the research and puts you under the radar scope of the AI ( you'll not have the religion minuses , so less probabilities on a war)

This is where monarch and emperor+ differ for me. At Monarch sure go for it and take astro from it,wait with machinery till you can lightbulb liberalism to 1 turn, do it then research machinery, optics and take astro.
I have my doubts on emperor+ as you can see i and also Invisible stalk lost lib race in the lonely fred game, ok it came ridiculously early in that game but it will always be a bit of a gamble since you have to research so much yourself and also have to have a sound rex which will cost you research, we'll have to play emp+ isolated games i feel to come to a conclusive answer, right now i feel go to CS (you can't do without), then turn around and go to astro.Research bonus from FR is not that substantial but relations are so i tend to FR as soon as i meet the others.


6- Prepare a defensive fleet ASAP ( self explainable )

Frankly i never do this when i intend space, i'll trust on my diplomatic skills there, if there is a Monty out there that i can't bribe i'll watch for the "enough on our hands warning", i can always build a fleet then


7-Forget your pride and cave in to the AI demands ( you'll be probably weak until the Industrial age, so don't mess too much around ). Even worse, give the AI all of your spare resourses or trade them. Get friends, but always try to stir a war overseas.

All true and important, i sell all my resources also for gpt.The supplied us with resources modifier takes some time to kick in but it can be the difference between a civ being pleased/cautious with you which is essential. I give in to every remotely reasonable demand (though not to demands on monopoly techs)


8- If you survived this far, now is a good time to think how to win. IF you have a nice chunk of good land, Diplo may be a solution ( big population ). Space may be a nice idea too (in that case beeline computers and spam labs; Internet is a good help too). Or you can take a tour de force and try a late Dom victory ( tech until the desired unit, shut down research and $rush (US is your friend ). Numbers over quality )

I found out playing this game that domination means planning ahead (even before you meet the others).



9- Enviromentalism is your friend in isolation ( you'll need big cities and in isolation :health: is your limitating factor ( remember that HR allows you unlimited :) and that there are much more ways to :) than to :health: in Civ IV )

I don't like environmentalism, it precludes Free market or State property which are both huge civics. I suggest when going space beeline directly to electricity/radio/computers, then research refrigeration and genetics and the health problems are gone.


10- Nukes are your friend too ( maybe you'll need to stop a launch in extremis )

I have no idea here, never used nukes , they're a bit too extreme for me:lol: .

There are no wonders that are needed to win in isolation ( some will help, but they would help too in non isolated starts : Henge, GW ,Pyramids, GL,.... ). In fact, probably you won't have even a chance of trying to build some ( like most of the medieval ones ) :Normally it is better to focus in more/better cities than in wonder races.

Agreed, Colossus is cheap but you're cities are so small by the time you build it that they don't profit fully. It's obsoleted by astro and you'll have this tech asap when isolated. This wonder can be effective when financial though.

This is just a catch up of the LHCs so far. I hope it helps ( and everyone is free to add something I could had forgotten of course ;) )

P.S Maybe someone should write something in the Srategy Articles section about what was learned so far in the LHCs. Volunteers?

You do it :goodjob:

This a very good review of the importantant points concerning isolation Rolo, so i wrote my comments below yours, concerning the lib race, it depends imo on monarch or emperor+.
 
A couple of comments on the above (which is an excellent summary).

Completely agree that Astronomy is THE key tech and going for liberalism on Monarch only.

I have some thoughts on a Defensive fleet. You have no zone of control and I'm not good enough to micro manage it normally. But having a couple of caravels stationed outside their lands and seeing if they are building lots of transports is pretty useful. Then you can shadow their fleet and try and intercept it with one single big fleet of your own, rather than trying to wall your island with ships.

One thing I've learned is that the AIs like to invade your tiny islands. They must count the number of defenders on the island and see that this island is underdefended and they invade there. It might be possible to sacrifice a tiny island - withdraw most of your troops from it. Let them land a killer stack, and then kill their transports, isolating the stack on the island.

Diplomatic skills are your best friends for surviving. Keep your opponents and friends fighting each other and make sure that your enemies never get a long rest period to consider invading you. Don't neglect your military completely though. I had a game where I had a four way defensive pact and Cathy still decided to attack me - which turned into a pretty fatal move as Mansa and the others gobbled half her territory.
 
That looks like a very good start to such an article--anything else would just be elaboration and explanation of these well stated core points. Good work, folks.
 
Thanks for the vote of trust, Dirk ( it was a vote of trust or a slight irony? Still deciding.... :lol: ) . I'm thinking seriously on getting that article done ( we already have a thing or two to say, in spite of the merits of the lib race on emperor are still being discussed ( IMHO needs another game test ) and my personal belief that Optics beeline can be a viable route in Prince- ( needs a game test too) ) but I'm out of time now ( maybe I'll start this weekend on it. By the way, anyone has some kind of trouble on having their save used as a example ( good or bad ) ? ). So I would apreciate any kind of input of the participants on the LHCs ( all of them, even the quiet ones ( LHC 4 ( Monarch and Emperor versions) have +3000 views. I doubt that all of them are from the posters.... )
Thanks in advance to all.
 
Irony is always lurking r_rolo1 but not in this case, it was a good write up and imo you're fully qualified to write the article. Of course there are things we haven't touched on yet here as for instance Invisible stalk's idea of having spy caravel's on the other continent's borders to see if lot's of galleons/transports are build, if this coincides with "enough on our hands" you'll know what's going to happen.

I think the article shouldn't be rushed since BTS is near and this may obsolete some of our observations sofar. Also the question of lib or optics hasn't been resolved fully and it is crucial. Then again we can always make a start and build on it from there.
 
On Monarch I think you can get both - first to Optics and first to Liberalism. On Emperor you have a choice of first to Astronomy (safe - pretty much guaranteed) and first to Liberalism (you may not make it). The benefits of Astronomy for fixing your economy and the earlier tech trading with Optics to me outweigh the one single tech that you get from Liberalism.

Astronomy is a great trade tech - you can probably get as much for it as Liberalism + whatever you took from it.

The other factor is early Optics. The reason this is important is that you will get tech trading with all the AIs sooner and be able to assess the diplomatic situation. Otherwise you might start trading with Mansa when he sends his single caravel out but not know he is Shaka's worst enemy. Also the techs you trade to the first to discover you may get trading by them to everyone else meaning you only get a handful of techs. By meeting everyone first you can trade the same techs with 3-4 AIs and get a lot more value.
 
Lost the space race to Huayna Capac, 1933:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Roosevelt_AD-1933.CivWarlordsSave

About 1600, I decided that I wasn't teching fast enough to catch up to Capac on a peaceful continent, so I decided to go for a military buildup, starting with an invasion of Egypt. The first landing (with about 24 units) was rushed to try to beat the Egyptians to infantry; they upgraded while I was sailing over. The first landing party was wiped out in two turns, causing lots of war weariness right from the beginning, and it was not until 1927 that I completed my takeover of the Egyptian territories. I quickly worked to build up gold, and bribed Napoleon to attack Huayna in 1932. He finished the spaceship on the next turn, so I was too late.

Lessons I have learned from what was a very fun map: when planning on a cottage economy, it is more important to settle the good spots first, even if there is a little more distance involved. I think I was too cautious with my expansion (in hindsight), as my cottages didn't really take off until much later in the game. I thought there would be more warfare on a continent with three different religions among five civs. Oh well.
 
Willpax:

Shame about the loss. I used Napoleon as an attack dog - he was easy to bribe into near constant warfare once I caught up in tech. I never passed HC in tech, but I was able to establish a military advantage.

On thing I've learned is that a renaissance or modern naval invasion had better bring a lot of troops. I would be thinking in terms of maybe 40 for renaissance and 60-80 for modern. I have no idea why, but at that point in the game the AI's military just skyrockets. Attack them in medieval and they can barely muster a counter attack. Attack them in renaissance and expect to get swarmed.

Also with Organized you can be a bit more aggressive with your early expansion. The best land was definitely to the South though - expanding there first helps.
 
Well, willpax, bad luck..... In my game HC was hammered down by napoleon ( which helped a lot ) and the more serious contenter was Hannibal. I had to bribr Nappy to war Han in the late game, because both were getting away ( Han with space and Nappy was vassalizing too many people and could be a diplo threat ).
The key of this game IMHO was to go south and work that grassland ASAP and to use nappy as a attack dog ( I used him against Wan Kong, Saladin and in the end against both HC and Hannibal) to stir things on the big continent. Capturing Ramesses land was optional, but welcome.
 
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