Lonely Hearts Club, BtS Edition, Chapter LXXX: Isabella

[Abegweit]

Abe's game looks very familiar with how i play
Nice dates too, very good.

Why, thank you. Coming from you, that means a lot.

I agree with cottages, if i dun have a good Bur. Capi or rivers i usually ignore them.

Agreed. I am not a fan of cottages outside of river squares in the cap unless FIN. I did build a few in this game though. Because of the lack of rivers, until CS there's no other improvement available.

 

[krikav]

I have the feeling that the wheel -> pottery should be the best starting tech here.
To get early cottages up is important, but the other aspect is that we play as a expansive leader.
A very early granary is possible because of this.

I did play the start to around turn 100, starting with pottery and then BW, then oracle->CoL.

I think this is a strong opening. But maybee AH first is even stronger?

 

[cseanny]

I think this is a strong opening. But maybee AH first is even stronger?

I think early production is more important, in virtually all games. I'm going to tech AH>Min>BW>Whl>Pottery while focus on getting 3 quick cities out and then shoot for TGL/Colossus.


I don't like water or isolation for that matter, nor have I played many games as of late so.....


Monarch/Normal to 1000AD

Spoiler :

Initial Tech path went AH>Min>BW>Whl>Pot>Sail>Mas>MC(squeezed in WRT somewhere) and then I headed up towards CS, then towards Lit/Music so I could build TGL/NE and get the free GA. Basically I just expanded and eventually teched towards MT/Astronomy which is where I'm at now. I've just met other AI's and am gonna start whipping Cuirs.

 

[krikav]

I think early production is more important, in virtually all games. I'm going to tech AH>Min>BW>Whl>Pottery while focus on getting 3 quick cities out and then shoot for TGL/Colossus.

Pottery first and then BW with a expansive leader.
Granary is a incredibly powerful building, I thought that maybe the extra production gained from the whippings would outweight what you gain from AH-first.

I do agree that production is the most important thing, I'm just hypothising which aproach is the most powerful.

 

[ecuwins]

You whip with no extra happies?

 

[krikav]

I whip alot, also when I don't have any spare happiness.
Do you consider this a grave mistake ecuwins?

 

[ecuwins]

Just curious. I'm trying to figure out if it's a good idea or not for my own self.

 

[krikav]

Just curious. I'm trying to figure out if it's a good idea or not for my own self.

I did try both aproaches, they seem roughly equivalent.
The map is very interesting in my opinion.

Think I have played the first 100 or so turns 4 times now.

 

[vranasm]

whips if done correctly are always benefitial :-D not sure about what you speculate ;-)

 

[krikav]

This one is next in line.
Deity saves attached.

I see that I apparantly played the start a long time ago, a pity that I didn't provide save/screenshots, it's very fun to compare to how you played 7 year ago.

 

[Fish Man]

This one is next in line.
Deity saves attached.

I see that I apparantly played the start a long time ago, a pity that I didn't provide save/screenshots, it's very fun to compare to how you played 7 year ago.

Spoiler :

Now this is a map that's perfect for mids. Literally at least 2 strong food resources for every city.

But no stone. Well, that blows.

 

[krikav]

Spoilers UD! Spoilers!

Spoiler :

I think there is another wonder that might be even more fitting on this map.

 

[Fish Man]

Spoilers UD! Spoilers!

Spoiler :

I think there is another wonder that might be even more fitting on this map.

Spoiler :

Unfortunately that ship sailed (ha) pretty early. And even if I got GLH it would've required crippling my early teching path. There's just too much you need on this map: fishing, AH, BW, pottery, just to name a few. Virtually all the early worker techs are required.

The benefit from GLH is also not as good as expected. With an extra 2 TRs you would get an additional 3 commerce per city, which is definitely nice but by no means game-breaking, and...for that big of an investment, at that high of a risk? I chose to stay away from wonders on this map.

Here at t72 I have 4 cities set up and am just about ready to whip a galley to settle that island. If I went GLH I would probably only have 2 of those cities, and be 3 or more essential worker techs behind. Keep in mind that the lighthouse is basically a wasted building, too - because of so low a happy cap and so much food.

Now a dilemma I have now is...should I go alphabet or monarchy or straight to astro? Cows are pretty nice production tiles and that copper is no slouch either. Also there is...spoiler alert...iron as well. So alpha will pay for itself in, idk, 20 turns. But that may be 20 turns we can't afford to spend. Also...these cities can easily grow to size 10 with that much food just lying around. I mean, look at all that fish! Perhaps the extra beakers spent will be well worth the astro wait? There's silver and whales, so the happiness situation isn't completely lost without monarchy. Still...something to think about.

 

[krikav]

Nice with company!
I'll post up to T72 as well.

Spoiler To T72 :

I was abit tempted to settle 1W for more rivers, but was afraid to spoil seafood to the west as I saw coast, so I just SiP.
Started with workboat first, worked the silk for 5 turns until borderpop, then forested PH. Then one turn again at silk because the wb would finish anyway.
I was going mining -> bw with the intent to whip worker, so I prioritized food.
Floodplain for one turn when boat was in transit, then just fish+floodplains until pop4.

I noticed the offshore island almost immediatly, as my warrior was moving west, then northwest to scout around the river for possible second city spots.
I then started to plan for GLH.

T22, BW is in.
At T21 I was at pop4 and spent one turn on worker. Thanks to spi <3 I could then revolt and whip worker the next turn.
Copper showed up, so worker went to mine that first before going to chops. (First 1S of copper, then SW of that, to maximize chance of regrowth).

At T22 I had multiple choices, sailing+masonry right away to secure GLH?
Agriculture->AH to get all cows up and running? Or TW->Pottery to take advantage of half-price granaries early on, and get some cottages up and running?
I made the call that cottages where the way to go. As I had BW already, granaries would be golden.

The situation at T39, when pottery was finished.
I think I whipped the settler, which was probably a mistake since I had to regrow from pop2 which ment I "had" to work fish and copper. (always work best tiles!). A whip from 5->3 would have been superior as it would have been way quicker to regrow working floodplains as well.

T56, masonry is done.
Since I went for pottery w/o agriculture, I don't get bonus for pottery, so agriculture has lost it's luster completely. Might tech it way later, but the health from the rice is not needed with exp, and the tech just to get +1F on one tile isn't worth it.
I also wanted AH as quick as possible, since there was 3 cows to improve.
Think the lighthouse was almost finished here, and a chop+worker OF will finish lighthouse and then make a rather late try for GLH.
Barcelona is growing on a galley to get an island up asap. This makes sense even w/o GLH.

I did get GLH built at T66, not a safe date by any means. But still not a complete gamble. (In the dataset for immortal eariest turn built is T70, https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/immortal-wonderdates.611664/ )
A note to myself... I should really pay attentoin to T0->T5 demographics, to deduce how many civs start coastal.
With GLH built, I just go full REX mode. (There is a settler in that galley now)

At T69 I see the silver, abit annoyed that I didn't put a worker on the boat.
I'm starting to think now that I might get away with skipping monarchy, and going straight for optics. I could whip a few forges in key cities for the extra happines.
(Settlement of this island bumped GPT by 9, very nice.

At T72
A worker will leave the galley next turn to start mining silver. Then galley will go to ship the settler being built in Barcelona to the silk-island.
Madrid and Seville will finish one more settler each, and I'll probably chop the last one in Toledo.

Economy:

 

[krikav]

@Undefeatable

Spoiler :

My total tech path was Min->BW->TW->Pot->Sail->Mason->Hunt->AH->Writing
I have granaries in 3 cities. No libraries obviously.
I don't I have any chance of getting 3 GSci in time (academy+astro double-bulb) and it's debatable if I might not even get 2 in time. I might get a GMerch too.

I do like your idea of alfabet, hadn't thought about that.

I do think you are giving GLH too little credit. As I see it, if you manage to land it you get carte blance to just expand which is obviously nice. Especially with exp when new cities are soo much easier to get up and running.
It's true that it's only +3 commerce per city at this stage, but I think that is rather game-changing, it's more or less like a free goldmine being worked every second city.
But then there is a time between astro and corporations too, and that will really make those extra traderoutes shine.

Not to mention the fact that you deny the AIs the extra traderoutes, which may or may not be really significant.
Given the right circumstances, GLH is one of those things that really cause a AI to become a complete runaway.

 

[krikav]

T72->T88

Spoiler :

Just saved up cash while waiting for libraries to finish. Here is the turn once a 3pop whip in Barcelona and a 2pop whip in Madrid of libraries is done.
I did a mistake and put a full turn into alfabet prior to getting libraries up, because I was fiddling with the slider and forgot to shut it of. >_<

I plan to get libraries in both Santiago and Seville, since they have an abundance of food and can run two specialists each.
Will settle the PH north of rice shortly to free up citizens in madrid+barcelona to run specialists.
I think it makes sense to get a library in Cordoba too since it has silver to work and has 3x 2 commerce traderoutes. But after them, it's enough libraries for a long time.

On T88 Alfabet has just finished, building research in cities that was working placeholders (barracks/pyramids/etc) added 20 bpt, and to get alfabet you have to produce 406 beakers if I'm not mistaken.
So the estimate of ~20 turns seem to be spot on!
It's not certain that getting alfabet postpones optics, since it makes it possible to instead self-tech maths, and then just bulb optics.
I'm still figuring out how to handle my GPerson situation, I have not gotten my regular 3 libraries up, but instead just continued to expand.
And what on earth am I going to do if I get a GMerch? O_o

 

[Fish Man]

Played to ~1000AD.

Spoiler :

t129 astro. Muuuch better than the t146 astro I got last time, for one reason: Colossus failgold.

I first got the idea when I discovered bronze in the capital BFC. In terms of utility I didn't really think much of it, but then I realized that there was a wonder about as cheap as a forge that could boost my economy by a lot if I built it. Then I realized that wonder would go kaput the second I bulbed astro...but what if I built it, and didn't finish it? In 3 of my cities? And let an AI get it?

The result was almost 450 failgold from various chops, whips, and slowbuilding (and yes, if you whip a wonder into a completion after someone else finished it, you get the entire cost as failgold, overflow included!). That basically saved me 10-15 turns as I had just enough to then tech machinery and optics at 100%. After meeting some civs I discovered some of them didn't even have compass! So I traded my way up, and get a whole bunch of nice deals, until I actually had a shot at lib. With my final GS I bulbed lib and managed to get military tradition with it. Now, at t158 or 960 AD, I have all the cuir techs and am ready to roll out conquistadors for some serious damage.

Who should I attack first?

Tech situation:

 

[krikav]

Looks nice UD!

Spoiler :

I'm up at T130 give or take a few turns. Have just gotten paper.
Got a GMerch first and wondered if a GA would have been best, but I just settled him. Got optics at T117 I think which I think is a very nice date.
But then I blundered completely and got meditation so when I was about to put a bulb into astro I saw that I would get philosophy. So I built an academy instead.
Think I will put one bulb into education, and then tech toward lib to get astro that way.

You say you bulbed lib? How is that possible? The path after you have machinery goes down to printing press then scientific method and physics. Am I missing something? O_o

 

[krikav]

@Undefeatable Pre-optics question:

Spoiler :

Did you go for monarchy or alfabet? Or was it straight to optics/astro?
I did detour to alfabet, but just self-teched optics since I got a GMerch (would probably have teched math and bulbed optics if a GSci).

 

[Fish Man]

@Undefeatable Pre-optics question:

Spoiler :

Did you go for monarchy or alfabet? Or was it straight to optics/astro?
I did detour to alfabet, but just self-teched optics since I got a GMerch (would probably have teched math and bulbed optics if a GSci).

Spoiler :

Ah, I misspoke. Bulbed edu on the way to lib, not lib itself.

No detours whatsoever. In this harsh world of deity iso I've sorta developed the rule that unless your land is really bad, +2 happy from any source is enough to get to optics reasonably fast. Cha + monuments, mining resource + forge, rep, 2 hunting luxuries on the wild chance you start with fur AND ivory, calendar if you happen to be drowning in dye and sugar or something, monarchy if none of the above...just one of these many options would suffice. And I think I had the same optics date as you, BTW.

I've never been so thankful for whales. Usually on regular non-iso maps optics is probably the most useless detour you'll ever take, whales have crappy yields, and there are plenty of other options for happiness. Here, besides silver, whale was the only luxury on the optics path, and one of only 3 happy resources I had, period. And +3 happy is a really big improvement from +2. And also every little extra bit of food helps in whipping, especially if you have to work a -2 commerce tile. So...this is the only situation I've ever encountered where whales were really important.

Traded for PP in case that wasn't clear. Also, I got so far ahead at one point that I couldn't really trade astro for anything past giving it to 1 person, and now the AI are slowly sharing it amongst themselves (I was using music as tradebait in two cases). Oh well...can't have everything.

Would you be OK replaying turns? I don't think it's fair you should railroad yourself into something that's so suboptimal (or is it?) just because you forgot one tiny detail, eh?