Lonely Hearts Club, BtS Edition, Chapter LXXXII: Boudica

[krikav]

Oh, you are that much into unhappines? What I usually do in such situations it so build settlers in anticipation of traderoutes. Did you know the silly awesome trick that unhappy citizens doesn't seem to eat food while building settlers/workers?? I learned only recently!

 

[Fish Man]

Oh, you are that much into unhappines? What I usually do in such situations it so build settlers in anticipation of traderoutes. Did you know the silly awesome trick that unhappy citizens doesn't seem to eat food while building settlers/workers?? I learned only recently!

I did know that and that’s probably what I should’ve done. But forges and harbors were also important and worth building.

My plan was to grow until stagnation and then “release” those citizens to work with a new and improved happy cap.

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler :

At the gates of Uruk:

"Bend the knee. Surrender or we will both die here today."
"Very well. I concede."

Gilgamesh is capped. Barely.

He got AL the last 2 turns of the war. If I had to have taken another city I would've been done for...my cannons were spent and my best rifles heavily wounded. But as it stands, he didn't call my bluff. And so, by a miracle, I manage to hang on.

This was probably the most gut-clenching war I've fought on deity. It was a race against the clock, because it was a matter of time before he got AL...and if he threw more than 5-6 CG3 infantry my way I knew I was done for. I had no cavalry to scout with either, so was forced to wander my stack into unknown territory, hoping at every turn he didn't have another army waiting to throw at me. But he didn't - though he managed to pull a dozen defenders from thin air even as I was certain his main force had been crushed twice over. And I've never been so thankful before for the lack of hill cities - because as things stood just an extra 25% defense anywhere would've done me in. I will admit, though, that one brilliant move won me the war more than anything else.

My first GG I was about to use to create a supermedic, but I realized that my designated medic was just 1XP from medic III anyways. So I gathered all my maces and distributed the XP evenly among them, giving most just enough to reach CR3. Then I upgraded these maces into rifles to create an elite force of ultracommandos with +85% city attack (CR3 gives bonus against gunpowder too), eventually reaching +110% with pinch - able to stand up to even CG3 infantry in limited amounts. These units I sent in after the initial cannon bombardment to take care of some of the tougher defenders, saving me enough siege to make the final push against machine guns and infantry.

My army as it stands is 35-ish units. Not enough to really take on anyone else, especially with Charlie (the most backwards leader) being almost at AL himself. But at 15 cities I'm now #2 for land and pop, giving me a fighting chance against HC. Since Giggles still lacks physics (surprisingly) I think I know how I can get back into the trading game.

First I'll give him physics for most of steam power. Then I myself will tech most of AL before giving communism for the rest. Afterwards, I'll have electricity from Gandhi that I can then pawn for combustion (later on). Finally, I'll tech industrialism and give it to Giggles for railroad. In this way I'll only have to research 1/4, 1/2, and then one expensive tech to get tanks. This will be sped up by a golden age from any GP from Delhi, which is currently working on the NE.

I think I'm done for today. But the toughest fight is yet to come. This is actually truly one of the hardest deity maps ever, even harder than the Pacal jungle iso (because of OP runaway fin AI potential, and the fact that everyone is just so far away with so much land). I don't even know if my land is even good enough to build enough tanks to really challenge HC. 4 of his cities are within striking distance of any 2-move unit; perhaps I can blitz them on the first turn of the war and then raze them to cripple him by 25%? Regardless - I've got to try. I promise that I will avenge you @krikav !!!

 

[Fish Man]

Attached a save for anyone interested.

 

[krikav]

Haha, way to go @Undefeatable !
Nice trick with the GGeneral.

 

[Fish Man]

t218 update

Spoiler :

Things are looking up.

Nobody's going for culture yet. HC's built Apollo, which is good because the AIs are notoriously bad at space wins (they literally luck into them by choosing thru RNG where/when to build SS parts). He's also got plastics - good because they love to waste hammers on hydro plants everywhere, too...and then promptly build the TGD. To power their cities...which are already twice powered . I don't think he can reach modern armor or mech inf or anything else dangerous in the time that it would take for me to build up another army, especially if he somehow decides to switch towards a culture win.

Got ASSline. About 10 turns away from tanks; I can trade for railroad and combustion to get oil no problem. Think I'll build IW in Uruk, workshop everything, and then turn the Indian city with double seafood to be a whip factory. That, combined with my native continent, should be enough to churn out enough tanks to take on HC.

My army of about 40-50 units now serves a double purpose. It'll prevent any revolts and, when the time comes, upgrade to a secondary force of elite CR infantry commandos and CR artillery to open another front - I suspect that, with a few anti-tanks, this might be an ustoppable wrecking ball in and of itself, given how highly-promoted everyone there is (again...110% attack vs city!), as well as the fact that it's almost as big as his main stack now. Some have even survived several low-odds battles, getting 4-5XP every fight. For an agg/char leader that is a very big deal.

I can use my last GG to give CR2 to 20 units that come from any city with barracks. Probably those will be 20 tanks.

Built NE in Delhi; should get any GP soon, starting a GA and allowing me to generate a GM, which I will then use to get enough gold to upgrade everyone to infantry and artillery.

Current state of my outdated but soon to be upgraded troops:

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler :

Finally...It is done. T279 conquest win !!! Didn't get to use my newly upgraded modern armor in the end because Willem was a wuss and capitulated right before I could sack his capital. Ah well, can't have everything.

HC: "We have gunships."
Me: "We have a Gandhi."

You're probably wonder how I got HC to cave with tanks, especially when he got advanced flight in like the early 1600s. It's simple:
1. Find army
2. Nuke army

Got rid of his attack stack in the first turn of the war (consisting of literally 50 gunships and 30-some other units). From then on he was mostly too afraid to come out of his cities as I slowly chipped away at his forces (it seems if the AI is outnumbered enough they won't come out to attack even if they can "win" all their fights because even if they do they realize they'll barely dent my numbers and seriously injure their defenders in the process). Mechanized infantry were tough but my CR3 pinch infantry were tougher. The way to rush them was to nuke a city once to at least halve every units' HP, at which point they're easy pickings for CR2/3 tanks. And the way to avoid AI nukes is constant reconnaissance and surveillance: most AIs only build tactical nukes, so be aware of range and steer clear of the cities that have them, using bombers or airships to scout (or sacking a tank if you really have to). Use your vassals' cities and armies as a meatshield whenever possible. Your enemies don't know how to hold on to their nukes for a better chance to strike, so take advantage of that.

In a tank war, once you've thinned the herd enough to not get instakilled if you separate your stack and have a way of dealing with gunships/advanced defenders outside of artillery sacks, if you have a lot of 1-move units it's often better to take them and go a separate direction (maybe throw in a handful of C2 tanks to deter armored counterattacks). That way the infantry and artillery aren't wasted twiddling their thumbs as your tanks blaze through everything. So I opened up a second front in the south with my infantry/artillery combo and managed to do serious enough damage for Monty to break free. Both capped in short order, and from then on the game was essentially won.

I will say this was probably perhaps the hardest civ game I've played yet. There were two runaway AIs who were very serious space/culture threats, HC building Apollo in 1530AD and getting gunships less than a hundred years after. Every singly battle culminating in the war against the Inca was nail-biting and I could've lost if I had to endure a few more bad fights. And 15 cities was barely enough to reach tanks and nukes; as it stands, I was struggling to maintain 1000bpt without a golden age (I just popped 2 through the game) and my home continent was garbage for caste workshop spam.

The decisive moment (GSpies WB'd in to show how I needed to get rid of a stack that I otherwise had no way of dealing with, glad he built SDI rather late):

The invasion begins:

The tide turns:

My final army and victory at last:

I've avenged you, @krikav . You and I may both rest easy now . The Incan menace has been crushed!

 

[Fish Man]

A note about fighting a war against a runaway when you're an era behind:

Spoiler :

Modern era units are actually not that impossibly hard to deal with if you have the numbers and tactics. I think the military gap between the industrial and modern eras is the least unbreachable. In the case of gunships: keep a couple SAMs handy and they won't dare attack your stack. Same with bombers and fighters. Keep in mind that infantry upgrades to SAM infantry, so save 2-4 rifles for that purpose. Mobile artillery and SAMs are easy pickings if they're holed up in a city waiting for your CR3 tanks to attack, and they will do that if your numbers are overwhelming (which, ironically, leaves them even worse off). Mechanized infantry and other scary stuff in cities aren't so scary after eating a nuke and, if need be, a couple of artillery sacks. And modern armor, which I never had to deal with here, you can promote a couple tanks to ambush to dissuade counterattacks. And again, as shown here and in @Lain 's Lincoln playthrough...AIs love to just hole up in cities and take the beating when they're outnumbered enough, in which case CR3 closes the gap pretty quick.

The real MVP award goes to a rifleman who shot down a bomber by pointing at the sky and blindly firing. What an absolute legend.
(I know...that was actually a mobile SAM which started out as a rifle. I was confused by the name for a sec but thought it would've been cool to pretend like that was what happened.)

 

[Fish Man]

Some afterthoughts:

Spoiler :

Some early-game stuff first. Unless you're drowning in food, mids is a trap. Wonders in general and everything strictly not needed for astro is a trap. 1AD machinery and 600AD astro are probably good dates to aim for though still slightly late. Any more than 5-10 turns off these benchmarks and you should start getting concerned. Not getting optics trades is very bad; you're relying on it as one of the 3 main backfill techs. Use optics to trade for as much of the classical era as possible, astro for medieval, and later steel for Renaissance (rifling path, as well as things that set you up for AL, etc. corporation) when people start getting it (or when you see a ridiculously good chance to literally get like 5-6 techs for the price of one).

There's no avoiding a massive industrial tank war on many deity iso maps (especially with ones as meh of a start as this) so you'd better start planning for one if you meet a good techer with more than 10 cities.

You need at least 15 cities to have enough production and commerce to be militarily viable in the industrial era and beyond. You will also need communism. Have a plan to get there at around 1500AD, or at least be well on the way to it.

Vassals are very nice to have, especially on higher difficulties. Don't discount their usefulness. I might go as far as to say disregard diplo, because you can switch them out of religions/into civics anyways, and begs still work based on surface-level relations (if HC appears pleased even though he hates your vassals, begging 10g incurs no penalty, for instance). Keep them around to harness their deity teching/production bonuses directly for yourself without paying any of the cost, and use them as meatshields. To get tanks, you want at least 2 vassals: one to get the electricity path for you and another to get combustion, while you find your way to AL -> industrialism. After that have the combustion civ go artillery -> rocketry and the electricity civ go fission. Trade for these and you'll have siege and nuke support to go along with your tanks.

Unless your map is really land-poor (or lacking good tiles to a severe degree like Lain's lincoln game) it's probably good to switch off from slavery to caste after you whip the coal plants and factories that need to be whipped. 2f4h is far more efficient than anything slavery can bring to the table most of the time. And you actually get to keep your population working commerce tiles to, y'know, research (and not go broke).

Overall: a very fun and difficult map. I do enjoy a good challenge like this, I must admit. Thanks to everyone who followed my journey - and see you all next time!

 

[krikav]

Haha, a very fitting revenge that a rifleman shot down that nasty bomber! Well done taking down HC on this map.
It's always the case that when you kill the AIs main stack, they become seriously crippled, I think it's some process that they start to rebuilding their stack, and at that point all cities become just sitting ducks.
I didn't know that the players stack (and the size of it) played any role in the AIs decision to go outside of their cities, is this the case?

Taking whatever vassal you can here I think is the way to go, no time to take diplo into account and keep options open.




I still do believe in pyramids on this map. And I think they are especially relevant in most iso setups in general for 3 main reasons:
1.) Happy cap is always a issue in iso. Pyramids solves them and saves you teching monarchy/calendar or what it might be that you need to raise the happycap.
Staying at size 4-5 cities might get you a early optics if you really streamline it, but after that you are too little developed to go from there effectively.
The only reason we might get away with it on this map is because we are cha.

2.) The relatively high chance of a GEng early on is extremly helpful in iso, since it enables a machinery bulb which can shave of almost 10 turns of your optics date which is obviously huge.
It's like bulbing optics, but we don't have to self-tech math+alfa before.

3.) Most iso-setups involves a war sooner or later, and having police state available then is golden.


I might do a trial with mids but without CoL so check out the optics date one can get in that case.

 

[krikav]

Without CoL, pyramids and then just cottages:
1AD:

Spoiler :

Machinery already done thanks to GEng bulb.

T127 Optics:

Spoiler :

Comments:

Spoiler :

I played quick just to try this out and forgot to manage GPP, so there won't be a second GSci in time to double-bulb astro.
I then played on super-quick without micro up untill T157, where it seems like I'll win lib, (1 bulb into education).
Got circumnavigation and most trades one could ask for.

Diplo is entierly different, WvO and Charly is in balance, monty vassaled Gandhi and him and Gilga is waring. HC is much less of a runaway...
Funny how small random things can change a game completely.

 

[Fish Man]

Without CoL, pyramids and then just cottages:
1AD:

Spoiler :

Machinery already done thanks to GEng bulb.
View attachment 515817

T127 Optics:

Spoiler :

View attachment 515818

Comments:

Spoiler :

I played quick just to try this out and forgot to manage GPP, so there won't be a second GSci in time to double-bulb astro.
I then played on super-quick without micro up untill T157, where it seems like I'll win lib, (1 bulb into education).
Got circumnavigation and most trades one could ask for.

Diplo is entierly different, WvO and Charly is in balance, monty vassaled Gandhi and him and Gilga is waring. HC is much less of a runaway...
Funny how small random things can change a game completely.

Not bad

Spoiler :

My personal problem with the machinery bulb is that without phi you're basically forced to wait quite a while for your second GS. It's theoretically possible to generate 3 GP by 200AD but practically very hard to get 3 cities up and running to do it, I think. Then again...rep highly incentives running scientists 24/7, so maybe I'm wrong. But to get 2 in the first place you need to settle, improve food, whip granary, whip library...takes longer than you think.

How many cities does HC/Willem have that particular game? And how in the world did Monty cap someone on literally the other side of the continent?

I do wonder what caused HC to become such a monster in my game. He teched as fast as Zara in the NC200 game, getting mech inf at about the same time. Obviously the leader/civ was OP, but I also think his flavors (gold/production) led to him teching the right things. And I think the start had something to do with it as well. He had the most space to expand into, and his start was positively juicy. He had a long river and 3 excellent food sources from the get-go, which is more than anyone else on this map can say they had. Food might be even more important for the AIs since they love to build so many useless buildings in which case whipping might be of supreme importance for them (not sure how often they do whip), they love caste system for some reason so more specialists = more power, and and fin river cottages...don't think I need to say anything more. Contrast that with Monty's start: cramped, brown, 1/3 the food, no river. I think we know why that war played out the way it did.

 

[krikav]

@Undefeatable:

Spoiler :

It's the happycap boost which does wonders.
My big mistake previously was teching agriculture+CoL and farming. Not good.
I also prioritized grassland cottages over riverside plains here, I think that made sense.
Stone city also felt less like a deadweight when it was allowed to do one thing only, and that was to work 6 grassland cottages.

It is problematic to get them in time for a early astro bulb, no doubt about it.
You get optics earlier, but astro later.
Especially on this map, and when you settle stone and cow as 2:d and third city. None of these cities are going to get up a library up and running soon.


I shut down that game, was only interested in trying out the start. But there was 1 city diff between him and Charly, think it was 10 for Charly and 9 for WvO.
I'll move on (or backwards really) to the pericles map now.

~T10 spoiler about the LHC81, Pericles:

Spoiler :

There is stone there too!!
+phi +cheap libraires +FISH!!

 

[Fish Man]

@Undefeatable:

Spoiler :

It's the happycap boost which does wonders.
My big mistake previously was teching agriculture+CoL and farming. Not good.
I also prioritized grassland cottages over riverside plains here, I think that made sense.
Stone city also felt less like a deadweight when it was allowed to do one thing only, and that was to work 6 grassland cottages.

It is problematic to get them in time for a early astro bulb, no doubt about it.
You get optics earlier, but astro later.
Especially on this map, and when you settle stone and cow as 2:d and third city. None of these cities are going to get up a library up and running soon.


I shut down that game, was only interested in trying out the start. But there was 1 city diff between him and Charly, think it was 10 for Charly and 9 for WvO.
I'll move on (or backwards really) to the pericles map now.

~T10 spoiler about the LHC81, Pericles:

Spoiler :

There is stone there too!!
+phi +cheap libraires +FISH!!

Spoiler :

Yeah, farms are useless and with just one food resource per most cities there isn't nearly enough food to justify caste. Hence no CoL, and why this was the first map I played where I didn't get agri until the ADs.

I agree with the happycap boost...which means that, truth be told, I would've went mids here too if I wasn't cha. As it stands, though, +2 happy in every city is enough to get you to optics in a decent amount of time. It doesn't matter how you get it...just that you get it in as efficient a way as possible. Monarchy is a last resort; ideally you'd want at least 2 pre-calendar luxuries (or 1 if it's a metal that can be boosted by a forge), or rep. But in this case, I found rep rather unnecessary due to cha + monuments already making my cities be able to grow to an acceptable size. I realize 6 pop is pretty small but...on this map, there weren't that many good tiles to work anyways (at least until SP). Nor was there enough food to cram 2 specialists into any city except the marble fish and south clam ones.