Long pauses during unit moves

[Danapoppa]

Greetings everyone,

I just purchased Civ3 GotY for Mac, and I've been having the problem described in the thread titled "1.29 beta2." Every now and then the game pauses while a unit is being moved. The unit will stop in mid-stride and stay there for a good minute or so, then finally finish the move and let the game go on as normal.

I've experienced this problem while running Civ3 1.29b2 on Panther 10.3.2 and 10.3.3 on a G5 2 GHz machine with a Radeon 9800 Pro retail card, 1.25 GB memory, and LOTS of hard disk room. Sound output is via USB to a Griffin PowerWave. I always quit other apps (like Safari and such) while playing Civ3, so it has a free hand with the memory. Obviously these pauses don't fit with the sort of performance I expect from my G5 box!

Has anyone figured out what causes these pauses? Any workarounds?

Do these pauses occur in 1.21g? If not, should I be running 1.21g, or is 1.29b good enough that I want to put up with them anyway?

Any help, advice, etc. would be appreciated!

Danapoppa

 

[AlanH]

Hello, welcome.

You don't say what size maps you are playing or which eras you are in when the problem occurs. Huge maps in the later stages of a game are known to slow down the fastest CPUs, whether they are Macs or PCs.

I've never played a Huge map, but I run version 1.29b2 in 10.3.2 on a 350 MHz G4 - probably 10% of your CPU power - and I've played standard and large maps into the industrial and modern eras without seeing delays of a minute at any stage. If I did I'd stop playing the game as I have better things to do than to watch an inert screen . I have over a GByte of RAM as well, but I seldom shut down apps for any reason as OS X pages out inactive applications. Safari and Mail are always running, and often Photoshop as well for screenshot processing.

 

[Danapoppa]

Hi AlanH, and for the warm welcome!

I usually play huge maps (because I like long, slow games), but I think I've seen the pauses on regular-sized maps as well. They generally happen beginning early in the game (sometimes within the first ten moves or so!) so I couldn't see how the size of the map would have too much impact. Unless processing the fog of war is MUCH more complex than I'd imagined -- but then they would happen every turn, wouldn't they?

I was thinking maybe they were caused by some background process. But if that were the case, why would they only happen right in the middle of a unit move, and never at any other time?

This problem has me really puzzled, and I'm likely to chuck Civ3 if I can't find a solution (because I feel the same way you do about inert screens).

I'll try playing a regular-size map and confirm whether they happen. If you have a spare moment or two, could you try starting a Huge map and see if the problem pops up? If any pauses are going to happen, they should happen early on.

Thanks!

Danapoppa

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Danapoppa
...so I couldn't see how the size of the map would have too much impact. Unless processing the fog of war is MUCH more complex than I'd imagined -- but then they would happen every turn, wouldn't they?

Not necessarily. It all depends on what the AI is doing out of sight. For example, suppose there's a bug in the masking of screen updates for invisible activity. If your unit animation suddenly results in a screen update event that decides to redraw the whole map it's going to take a while.

I was thinking maybe they were caused by some background process. But if that were the case, why would they only happen right in the middle of a unit move, and never at any other time?

There are several asynchronous threads running. If one suddenly decides to process a whole lot of screen information it might well lock the rest of the game up.

This problem has me really puzzled, and I'm likely to chuck Civ3 if I can't find a solution (because I feel the same way you do about inert screens).

I'll try playing a regular-size map and confirm whether they happen. If you have a spare moment or two, could you try starting a Huge map and see if the problem pops up? If any pauses are going to happen, they should happen early on.

I'll try to find a moment. I'm not even finding time to play gotm at the moment as I'm helping to get the results process back on track during my Civ-time.

 

[gfeier]

I've been reporting this problem since 1.29b2 came out. I believe it has something to do with a conflict between the unit sound and the background music. I have a dual 800 and I suspect the freezes may be a dualie-specific problem.

 

[dojoboy]

gfeier, you've got PM.

 

[Danapoppa]

Thanks for replying, gfeier.

After reading your comments I located your post in the (long) original 1.29b2 thread. You indicated there that the pauses didn't occur when you were running 1.21g.

Have you noticed the pauses while playing a non-Huge map? Or do you still play mostly Huge games? (I'm about to try a smaller map, but it's harder to confirm that a problem isn't occuring than to confirm that it is.)

If it's a choice between no Huge maps and no pauses, I might be happier with 1.21g after all...

Danapoppa

 

[gfeier]

Originally posted by Danapoppa
Thanks for replying, gfeier.

After reading your comments I located your post in the (long) original 1.29b2 thread. You indicated there that the pauses didn't occur when you were running 1.21g.

Have you noticed the pauses while playing a non-Huge map? Or do you still play mostly Huge games? (I'm about to try a smaller map, but it's harder to confirm that a problem isn't occuring than to confirm that it is.)

If it's a choice between no Huge maps and no pauses, I might be happier with 1.21g after all...

Danapoppa

I ALWAYS play huge maps. It never occurred to me to make that connection. I still like 1.29b2 better than 1.21g.

 

[gfeier]

Originally posted by dojoboy
gfeier, you've got PM.

Huh?

 

[Danapoppa]

Well, I've just confirmed that the long pauses do happen in non-Huge maps. I just got one in year 1870 BC while playing a regular map...

I deleted my prefs file before starting this game, and as a result I noticed that the music stops while the game is pausing. Up till now I had always turned the music off while playing, 'cause it gets kinda tedious after a while.

So although the pauses may be related to the sound files (I output USB sound too), they seem to occur even if music is turned off, FWIW...

I think I'll try re-installing at 1.21g and see if that makes any difference.

Danapoppa

 

[Danapoppa]

It sure looks like 1.21g is free of those nasty pauses, just as gfeier said. I've started a couple games and played them long enough that I should have seen at least one or two pauses, and it was smooth as silk.

So gfeier (or anyone else with an IMO), what about 1.29b do you like better than 1.21g?

I haven't played any games with either version long enough to notice a difference in gameplay. (I was too busy trying to get to the bottom of the pause issue, since a two-minute pause in the middle of a move can be pretty distracting. )

I'm thinking 1.21g is looking pretty good. I can use the editor and (since I'm pretty new to the game) tutorial mode, and there are no #%@#ing pauses. If there's something in 1.29b that makes the pauses bearable, I'd sure like to hear about it...

Danapoppa

 

[AlanH]

The differences between 1.21 and 1.29 that I'm aware of are:

1. 1.29 gives you stack moves, which is a significant improvement when you have gangs of workers to move around or SODs to position.

2. I seem to recall there is a significant difference in tech costs between the two versions, but I can't remember what the exact effect is.

3. I think 1.29 fixed some bugs that were present in 1.21 that resulted in crashes.

4. You can't play GOTMs or any cross-platform SGs with Windows players if you run 1.21.

 

[Queue]

I too have noticed the long pauses in 1.29. One thing I am going to try is to turn off the second processor in my G5 and see if that makes a difference.

For me the pause has never been a minute, more like 20 seconds or so. but it is still annoying. I hope we find out what is causing it.

Thanks
Q

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Queue
For me the pause has never been a minute, more like 20 seconds or so. but it is still annoying. I hope we find out what is causing it.

No mystery - it's the AI calculations in between turns. It's cured by a faster Mac.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver


No mystery - it's the AI calculations in between turns. It's cured by a faster Mac.

I'd have said that as well, Brad, but some of these reports are coming from players with dual CPU G5 "playstations" (sorry - it's only jealousy speaking )

 

[Danapoppa]

Thanks for jumping in, Brad.

AlanH is right. I was experiencing some very long pauses, sometimes as long as two minutes, and I don't think they make a faster Mac than mine.

The first time one of these pauses happened, I didn't realize it was a pause. I actually thought the G5 had locked, and used the Power button to reboot. I don't do that lightly, at least not since upgrading to OS X. That's how long it was taking!

I don't understand why AI calculations between turns should cause the animation of the unit move to pause for a minute or two. And why does this problem not affect 1.21g?

Danapoppa

 

[Queue]

Brad, Yes thanks for jumping in...

However, the Pause is not between turns. I do well understand sometimes lengthy movement of other civs between turns. I had a G3 400 before I got my new Computer. It comes in the middle of my turn as I am moving a unit from one square to another... After the pause, it goes away for a while then hits again.

So, tonight I turned off the second Processor in my G5 and guess what all... The pause was gone.. No sign of it. With the second Processor turned off I am unable to make the game pause when moving one unit to another position.

Hope this helps..
Q

 

[Brad Oliver]

Originally posted by Queue
So, tonight I turned off the second Processor in my G5 and guess what all... The pause was gone.. No sign of it. With the second Processor turned off I am unable to make the game pause when moving one unit to another position.

That's interesting, because Civ3 isn't multi-threaded. In fact, about the only thing it could be related to is the sound callback code.

Oh well, I gave up the Civ3 source on Oct 15 2003 when I left Westlake, so it's someone else's problem now.

 

[Danapoppa]

That is interesting news, Queue.

I'm not sure I'd want to turn a processor off just to play the latest version of Civ3. I mean, hey, I paid a lot of money for that second processor! But, like the man with the ears said: fascinating...

I'd just like to re-emphasize, as Queue did, that the pause occurs during the unit move animation. (That is, it makes a warrior moving to the next square look as though he's playing a game of "statues.") As far as I can tell, it only happens at that time, and never at any other time.

I noticed, after I reverted to 1.21g, that the pointer changes to a stopwatch icon briefly (no more than a fraction of a second in the early game) after each move is completed. I'm guessing this stopwatch indicates the AI processing that Brad referred to. It doesn't take long at all, but I would expect the G5 to handle even fairly complex processing in very short order...

The pause that interrupts the unit movement animation is clearly an entirely different animal. For one thing, it's too sporadic: it only happens every few dozen moves, more or less, and the timing seems completely random (that is, there's no way to predict which unit moves will be affected by it).

I would think AI processing would need to be done after every move, wouldn't it?

Danapoppa

 

[Danapoppa]

Originally posted by Brad Oliver


That's interesting, because Civ3 isn't multi-threaded. In fact, about the only thing it could be related to is the sound callback code.

Hmmm. Someone else (in another thread) mentioned sound files as a possible cause. And Greg at MacSoft support has suggested the problem might have something to do with a connected device...

Queue, if you don't mind me asking, how do you output audio? I'm using USB output to a pair of Apple Pro Speakers via a Griffin PowerWave.

Originally posted by Brad Oliver


Oh well, I gave up the Civ3 source on Oct 15 2003 when I left Westlake, so it's someone else's problem now.

And we certainly don't expect you to fix it.

But even without the code on hand, you probably know better than anyone how the game is programmed.

Any hints, etc. you can provide toward elucidating the problem will give us something to take to MacSoft support, so that the final release of the 1.29 patch (assuming that it happens eventually) will be free of this problem.