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Long term future plans/strategy.

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by I. Larkin, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I open this not to mix up with short term "optimization problems" that have yes/no type solution. We rather need to create common background about game strategy.
    At the same time it is not that remote future: at turn 36 we will make our decision about "free tech". Now we start dot map, it is also plan for 30 - 40 turns ahead.
    However here I'd like to see some ideas about how game may looks.
    Nothing wrong with Despotic GA. We will have republic sooner.
    I agree, that Sword Rush will not win the game, but we may dictate our conditions to opponent at early stage and/or destroy their infra. With Galleys we may pick pest peaces of land. Our "home" is not that good to stay passively.
    If our neighbors strong and educated we will cooperate with them, because of that better to have expensive Tech. If they are weak and silly better to finish them asap...
    Hopefully Curragh will show soon what we will have if we have MMaking.
     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Ok, so we need to find a consense on two questions:
    • Will we go for a fast Republic?
    • Will we try an early rush to take over the continent, or rather stay peaceful and cooperate?

    I guess you know me good enough to know my opinion on this... :)


    But on the other hand: the homes of the other teams will be very similar to ours, and from the early F11 numbers it looked like we did the best job of getting the most out of our start. Passive doesn't need to be bad. (Petrosjan beat Spassky in 66...)
     
  3. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Early Republic relies heavily on our success in the Philo race. I am not at all sure that we can make that.

    Early war to take over the continent ONLY makes sense in my eyes if we can make use of it. To me, that means that 1. we can extort from them everything they have 2. take AND hold a few towns (tricky to say the least) 3. settle their lands for ... everything. Otherwise we will be left WEAKER towards the other continent, and I would not expect that anyone would trust us if we went whistling, hm, what, there was another civilization on our continent, noooo, dun think so.... :mischief:

    As I said, I do not see ENOUGH FOOD for this, although I believe that our military skills could be good enough to show that stunt.

    templar_x
     
  4. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Yes, we know. But imagine that we have Persia at our continent. And they do not want cooperate.
    And use Warrior - Immortal upgrade. And their power comparable with our.
    With MMaking we may send counterstrike and pillage iron.
    Another option: At our continent they are weak. Cooperation gives nothing.
    At another continent, however, they have good research plan.
    We may send expedition to destroy infra...
    Third option: they are very cooperative. We agree about cooperation and gift them MM, trade lux and have good research plan while we research Republic...
    Well, looks that DK industrial, but not Seafaring. Most probably not France. => needs Alpha first.
    EG and AN has gpt 2-3 point less then we are. => we get it earlier. [But I agree to hire scientist at turns, when second City does not work on Wheat.
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Unfortunately, if I didn't miscalculate, we need the scientist for the first three turns of second town.

    Also, there is another disadvantage with that: if we hire a scientist, the other teams will know that we are close to finishing a tech. It can only be Writing (why else would we hire a scientist... certainly not to get IW a turn earlier...), so they now we had to do Pottery first (otherwise we would have finished Writing long ago).
    On the other hand, if we go on "as normal", they have no way of knowing when we switch from one tech to the other. Given our high commerce, they may already have given up the Philo race and doing something else instead. (They have to take into account, that we went Writing directly and are now already working on Philo.)

    I just had a different idea: how about we finish Writing normally, and then squeeze out a turn for Philosophy? In order to get it a turn earlier, we need to squeeze out 11 beakers in the turns 29-36, and we have three towns to work with, so we never need to waste our wheat! (And we don't loose shields for the first curragh.) And it will totally confuse our competitors, if we hire a scientist "in the middle of a tech"... :lol:

    Doesn't work: firstly, we need to build ships + units, while the others only need to build units. So they will have sufficient forces to defeat our expedition.
    And secondly, it may take a long time to find the safe passage to the other continent. So by the time we can send units, it may already be too late.

    From a general point of view, naval operations work only in combination with a tech/weapons advantage. Otherwise you may be able to do some local damage, but in the long run you'll fall behind.

    We'll need MapMaking for sure, but I don't think we already need it at turn 37! We are in no way ready to use it yet. Getting it 20-30 turns later is still early enough.
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Another question: do we want to go for the Lighthouse?
     
  7. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    @ Lanzelot - do I understand you correctly: you state that we are able to win both, one turn on Writing and one on Philo, if you use scientists for certain turns, but you suppose that we only gain that turn on Philo?
    I think I do agree with that.

    Lighthouse sounds nice, but is not a necessity as Carthago. SoZ would be nice, too, but is also no necessity, IF (big if!) we do have horses! In case we should not have horses I really really want SoZ (in my test game with Lanzelot, I am the one without horses, and although my military is way stronger, it does not feel so if you are attacked by mobile horses.

    Btw, how do the others see that we employ scientists?

    Re early warmongering, I absolutely feel that Lanzelot is right under normal circumstances. The only early attack from our side I could imagine is a non-cooperative weaker opponent on our landmass.

    I only want to point out that MM has other benefits also, like fast moves where no roads are (yet), no river penalty for movement, galleys are the better scouts and don´t go obsolete for a very long time, TGLight if we want to build it, and harbours (although I am sure we won´t need many of those early).
    However, I still do not think it would be so top priority that it is even close to sure that we should choose it for our free tech, in case we even get it.

    templar_x
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    That comes with Engineering... ;)

    So let's make a poll:
    • CoL
    • MM
    • Something else

    I vote for CoL.

    Regarding scientists: I didn't check, whether we could gain a turn for Writing and Philosophy. :eek: I think not. But even if we can, it would probably cripple us completely... And going for Rep will require a strong position, otherwise we invite attacks...
    I think SoZ is not that strong. In our test game, it didn't make a difference... (Except for triggering your GA...) And I think, one of the requirements for the map creator was that all 4 nations have iron, ivory & horses within reach.
    Lighthouse, however, is a step towards GA, if we need to trigger it peacefully, and it may allow overseas trade. But still not sure, whether we should do any early wonder.
     
  9. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    We need reconsider SS. I see many mistakes. We also may optimize worker’s motion.
    We may play 2 turns as planed, but next turns we must corroborate.
    In general I am optimistic about Phylo race. We were ahead 1-2 gpt always, so even with Pottery we may win. Pity, that Memento can’t make more suggestion about “what’s going on at enemy site”.

    I did not plan massive invasion. I just want to use potential of our UU. It may be just “Pirate action” like capture workers from sea, pillage important resources. Also we may bring strong defender to important location.
    I don’t think that LHouse is an issue, on small map semi-suicide Galley works OK.
    I am afraid it will take longer, at turn 70-80. It may be too late. OK, turn 37 is too early, but with proper use of Galleys and harbors we may benefit more then 15 turns delay of Republic.
     
  10. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Sir Lanzelot, please reach me a glass of that excellent Port you already had too much of...

    GALLEYS do not have movement restrictions.

    templar_x
     
  11. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    @ Ivan - the big danger undertaking "pirate actions" with you UU is that EVERYONE can trigger our GA at the worst possible time. that way Sir Lanzelot suffered a despotic GA in our test game.

    @ Lanzelot - not sure about that being a proof for the uselessness of SoZ. Our starting positions were just too unbalanced so the game finished too early for the ACavs to matter. But with more balanced starts AND NO HORSES for us, I see SoZ as pivotal.

    templar_x
     
  12. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    That's right. But we may have it early enough, or just after Republic.
    Also, I consider it as tread, which is more dangerous then action.

    I vote Map Making.

    Probably SoZ deserve their shields. But we may loose a race. LH than?
     
  13. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Let us do this vote when we are closer to Philo, which is still a couple of turns down the road. We will have a curragh by then and 6 turns of exploration that may change the picture on us already.

    With the few food bonuses we see I lean towards early Republic, thus CoL. But by my own list of pros and cons of MM, I may change my mind if what we see gives an indication to move by not-only-exploring ships sooner.

    @Ivan: yes, SoZ, and if it fails, TGLight, would be my ranking. If everything goes wrong, Col.

    templar_x

    edit: tread=threat? hmmm
     
  14. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I also reserve my rights to change my mind.

    That mean we need MM sooner and build SoZ on coastal City.

    Yes, I meant "threat".
     
  15. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Anybody can explain to me how corruption works on this map? It is small map, right?
    OCN for despotism 13.6. So corruption of Tintagel is 1/27.2+3/40=11-12%.
    However fourth commerce "gone". Why? What will happen at larger distances?
     
  16. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    To be honest, I hoped you will explain the corruption model to me...

    I already wondered whether the 4th commerce will be corrupted. Sad it is so. But I cannot contribute much to this issue and I know that you are the most dedicated expert there.

    templar_x
     
  17. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    It is simple...
    Spoiler :
    Everything About Corruption: C3C Edition
    This is a guide about how corruption works in Conquests. It's slightly different than how it used to work in PTW and vanilla Civ3.

    The information that follows was discovered by extensive testing and contributions by numerous members of the Civ3 community, including Aeson, DaviddesJ, Nor Me, and Qitai. We also recently got some inside information (a look at some of the actual corruption code), which helped find the last few missing pieces of the corruption puzzle.

    DEFINITIONS

    Corruption in Civilization 3 is commerce from city tiles that cannot be used by the empire. Corrupted commerce is indicated graphically in the city screen by stacks of red coins. There are numerous factors that influence corruption, all of which are addressed in this article.

    Waste is the loss of production as opposed to commerce, and is governed by almost the same rules as corruption. Everything in this article that applies to corruption, also applies to waste, unless otherwise mentioned.

    CORRUPTION BASICS

    The total corruption in each city is equal to the sum of two independent components: distance corruption, and rank corruption.

    For non-communal government types, distance corruption depends on the distance of each city from its closest palace. Rank corruption in a city depends on how many other cities are closer than that city to the palace.

    For communal government types, distance corruption does not actually depend on distance. Each city is considered to be the same distance from the Palace. Rank corruption depends on the total number of cities in the empire.

    You can reduce corruption in your cities by building appropriate city improvements and Wonders, changing to a more efficient government, choosing a Commercial civilization, and connecting your cities to the trade network of your empire. In addition, you can reduce waste by bringing your cities into a WLTKD celebration.

    You can determine the total number of ‘red’ commerce in a city by multiplying its total corruption by the number of raw commerce produced by citizens working the land, rounded to the closest integer.


    DISTANCE CORRUPTION

    For all non-communal government types, the distance corruption component is proportional to the distance of a given city from its closest Palace. For communal governments, the distance to the closest Palace is considered to be the same for all cities on a given map. The “closest palace” to a city can be the Palace, the Forbidden Palace, or any other Wonder with the “reduces corruption” ability.

    For corruption purposes, distance is always an integer number, and is given by:
    Code:

    d = max(x,y) + min(x,y)/2
    where
    max(x,y) denotes the maximum between x and y,
    min(x,y) denotes the minimum between x and y,
    x is the distance in the NW/SE direction,
    y is the distance in the NE/SW direction,
    and the integer division is rounded down.

    In the special case of communal governments, the distance for all cities is taken as:
    Code:

    d = (MaxD) / 4

    where MaxD = (MapW+MapH)/4, MapW is the width of the map, and MapH is the height of the map, as given in the editor.

    The distance, d, is used to get the adjusted distance, da, as follows:
    Code:

    da = 0.5^Ni * min(Gd * t * d, MaxD)
    where
    Ni is the number of anti-corruption buildings,
    t = 1 if the city is on the trade network
    5/4 otherwise
    Gd = 3/2 for Rampant corruption (Despotism)
    3/4 for Minimal corruption (Democracy)
    1 otherwise

    For waste calculations only, when the city is in a WLTKD celebration, divide da by 2.

    So each anti-corruption building, which is a city improvement with the “reduces corruption” ability in the editor (Courthouse and Police Station), divides distance corruption by 2.

    Finally, the exact value of the distance corruption component is given by:
    Code:

    Cd = da /MaxD

    RANK CORRUPTION

    The rank corruption component depends on the rank (R) and optimal city number (Nopt) of each city.

    In a non-communal type of government all cities of an empire are ranked in order of distance to the capital, starting at zero for the capital itself. If several cities have the same distance to the capital, they are ranked in order of founding, and if they also have the same date of founding, they are ranked by their order in the database. In a communal form of government, all cities have the same rank, which is half the total number of cities in the empire, rounded down.

    Each city also has its own optimal city number, Nopt, given by:
    Code:

    Nopt = max(OCN * (L/100 * (1 + c + Gr + Gp*Nwe) + 0.25*Ni), 1)
    where
    OCN is the optimal number of cities for the map size,
    as found in the editor
    L is the percentage of optimal cities for the current
    difficulty level, as given in the editor
    Nwe is the number of active Wonders in the empire with
    the “reduces corruption” ability
    (Forbidden Palace, SPHQ)
    c = 0.25 for a commercial civilization,
    0 otherwise
    Gr = 0.1 for minimal or nuisance corruption
    2 for communal corruption
    0 otherwise
    Gp = 3/8 non-communal corruption
    3 for communal corruption

    For waste calculations only, when the city is in a WLTKD celebration, add OCN/4 to Nopt.

    The rank corruption for a city is then given by:
    Code:

    Cr = R / (2 * Nopt), if R < Nopt
    (2 * R – Nopt) / (2 * Nopt) otherwise

    MAXIMUM CORRUPTION

    The sum of the distance and rank components of corruption can be greater than 100%. The game sets an upper limit for the total corruption in a city to be equal to 90% minus 10% for each city improvement and minus 70% for each Wonder in the city with the “reduces corruption” ability:
    Code:

    Cmax = max(0.9 – (0.1 * Ni + 0.7 * Nwc), 0)

    POLICEMAN SPECIALISTS

    By assigning one of your citizens to be a policeman, you can cause one corrupted commerce and one wasted shield to become uncorrupted. This reduction in corruption comes before applying the maximum corruption limit described in the previous section, so the city may not show any reduction if was already taking advantage of that limit.

    SUMMARY

    To summarize the above, distance corruption depends on the distance of the city from the closest palace (or a constant number for communal governments), multiplied by a factor that depends on the government type, and another factor if the city is not connected to your capital by road, harbor, or airport. Each corruption-reducing building in the city halves distance corruption.

    Rank corruption depends on the ratio of the city rank to the adjusted optimal city number. The city rank is equal to the number of cities closer to the capital (or half the total number of cities for Communism). The rate of increase of this corruption with rank doubles after rank exceeds the optimal city number. The optimal city number of the map gets modified by the difficulty level, the commercial trait, the current government, and the number of improvements and Wonders with the “reduces corruption” ability.

    Courthouses and Police Stations decrease distance corruption and increase the optimal number of cities. They also each decrease the maximum corruption limit.

    The Forbidden Palace acts as a second Palace for distance corruption calculations, but not for rank calculations. The Forbidden Palace itself will have low corruption, but if there are many cities closer to the Palace than the Forbidden Palace, the cities around the Forbidden Palace will have high rank corruption. However, even though it doesn’t provide a new set of city ranks, the Forbidden Palace reduces rank corruption throughout the empire by increasing the optimal number of cities.

    To make it brief: at our case, at initial stage at Despotism [theory]
    corruption is
    Cr=R/27.2+ t*1.5*d/40.
    where R City rank and d City distance (3 in most cases). t=1 for City "on road" and 1.25 for City "of road".
    Corruption of red 0.1492, blue 0.186, 3 south City 0.2977 or 0.224 if we build it before blue.
     
  18. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    thank you Ivan!

    to me, with that information, settling blue would be even more a long term mistake then. either we settle pink for its factory potential or greenish (somewhere around where Lanzelot put green in his dm) for its commerce potential.
    greenish will very probably become our strongest commerce city, and it would be a pity to waste so much of its dear income into corruption.

    i´d say, either green or pink next. green needs less scouting and thus less tax waste so i still favour it. but pink is very important as well and gains a bit of growth.
    i cannot see any strategic value of blue at all. it will be "just another" core town. so no priority in my eyes.

    templar_x
     
  19. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I agree. One other point that follows from this is: Tintagel will be our most important town, so we need to grow it quickly and give it a harbor and a library. (Then its commerce potential will probably be even more important than the green town.)

    In my test game yesterday night I noticed that in the pink town already the 3rd commerce was eaten by corruption!! :faint: Even when connected by road! That means 33%! According to your formulas, it should be 18.6% :confused:
    Has the research that is described in that Academy Article, been conducted before a critical C3C patch??? I don't think, that the ISDG biq has been "modified" in some way. My Sandkasten, which is just an ordinary small continents map on Emperor, shows the same incredibly high corruption values. So I thought it is "normal" (I usually never play small maps, so I didn't know what to expect).
     
  20. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Nobody study corruption that deep. I noticed long ago that in Civ assist2 it is some mistake, but we do not use civassist anyway. Probably commerce corruption round to closest integer, i.e. 0.186*3=0.558 > 0.5 => 1.
    A conclusion that come out of it that better :
    1) not to place too much Cities at first ring,
    2) have alternative SF and let Camelot grow.
     

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