Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by I. Larkin, Jan 26, 2011.
I understood it as a joke, because Lanzelot is the key man of our team.
I have got a new proposal for a dotmap.
It contains minor changes which I addressed in the other thread.
In the SE end I put 2 sites next to each other and have no real preference for either of them.
Southern channel town moved.
The most eastern town could be one tile closer as well, if we need to make concessions to the Anarchos there.
1E2SE should be next in my eyes, or one of the lux towns. 1E1SE from Carlion could be another option.
We still need quite a few settlers and workers.
I think it is a bad idea to move south chanel.
We loose freshwater fish and RBG.
But in "short term" we need to know what City next?
I did some calculations. If the southern channel town gets the fish, and all three grasses in its bfc irrigated, it will work out.
Lots of work though, and leaves little food for anyone else.
It works if we see the town se from it as a pure fishing village, which works all the coast tiles there, and one mountain.
And I think I am sure now that the southern town should be on the channel position as well.
Next town I vote for 1e2se, IF we will have a settlement agreement with the Anarchos.
dark blue in the very nw can get more tiles, because there are 2-3 that can go to the capital, while the cap can give at least the 2 coast tiles to light blue.
i did not mean to already do the whole tile allocation task, but I checked in all the places where it is critical whether there is enough food: especially the southern channel town (should be a strong producer that way) and the tundra towns.
the two town in the very east, in case they could get founded,would of course have to exchange 1 tile to get enough food.
It is lot of fresh water. What a problem with food?
X posted. Navy looks much better. Probably Hill better than BG at SE but I can swallow.
Forest silk - well... OK. I think if Worker go south it will be next City.
Note that not all will have Libs I think
lots of fresh water, yes. but few tiles that can be irrigated.
as i said,the way i drew it it would work.
Ok, the reason why I haven't posted and discussed here yet, is: good dotmaps is a bit of my weak point... I trust that you get this right
In any case: that dotmap and tile assignment looks like it was a lot of work... Thanks a lot!
Just one comment: does it really pay off for Camelot to build a harbor, if it's working only two coastal tiles?! We could give these coastal tiles to the city 2NW-1N and let Camelot work two more plains. (Or would the other city have not enough shields then?)
No harbour in Camelot in this plan.
That is what I wanted to say in my explanations above: the coast tiles go to the other town, which in return gives 3 more tiles to the town to the north.
Shifting the tiles around, every core tile gets worked and every town can grow to size 12.
I want to bring up another topic:
We will need lots of shields that we cannot easily muster.
Many towns are practically fishing towns. I count only 6 decent producers. The other towns might make us wealthy, but not productive.
Still many towns need acqueducts, and most need a lib, a harbour and a market. Lots of shields.
We can either rush them with money. This will basically mean to at a certain point practically stop research. That would be smart if we have markets in the core cities of course.
Or we use another technique: A chop masterplan. Plant forests, chop them, replant where we need them.
Since we are industrial I am ALL FOR THIS PLAN. Otherwise I do not see where we should get all those shields from. But it means we need A LOT OF WORKERS. Soonish. A soon GA with 20 workers from the 2nd gran town would help quite a bit for the builds as well as for the workers...
Btw, just an observation: Due to the special sea passage, we can trade luxes, ressources with the other continent! (or claim them with force and bring them home )
Ála cracker, yeah... It's a long time since I've done this (it's so tedious...), but here we can split the work between 3-4 players, so let's do it!
I always do it. But we need Eng
then let us hope that the Anarchos draw it as their free tech,so our lumberjacks can finally bring their blades to good use.
Some more observations from viewing our towns in detail:
- The capital could quite easily be turned into a 4,5-6,5 combo factory (10-9-11-10, or will corruption eat a shield on this map?).
For that, it only needs a mine on the sugar hill. We may want to go there with a worker anyway for a road and the extra commerce in Republic.
But what to build with the 10s? warriors to disband somewhere else? Maybe we simply build the road and mine much later.
- Glastonbury very probably will either need shortrushes while building settlers (e.g. from 6 to 10 shields after t1 of a 5-7 settler cycle), or the 2s from the disband of a reg warrior. Both should easily be possible. The one alternative which *may* exist (let´s see the corruption in Rep) is to mine a hill. It might go smoothly 5-7 with 6,8,7,9 shields.
In order to found the most important towns left, we may want to have Glaston run as a 2nd SF for a while after becoming a Republic.
Otherwise, we most of the time will get 2-turn workers from here in Republic. And 1-turn workers during a GA if we set the town up for that!
- If this really is becoming a science game, every town on my dotmap will be worth a library, plus we need many harbours, few ducts, lots of markets. varsities only in core towns probably. Better create science farms overseas.
Yes, let's first get some more towns up and running, and think about the necessary workers later. (Otherwise unit upkeep could seriously harm us.)
We should start a map, where we mark all tiles that already had a forest chop! When we chop our first forest, I will start one and attach it in it's own thread.
ok, now we have two negotiations that seem to be quite concrete. The Eagles and The Anarchie.
how can we go on from here?
1) the Sir Arthus way:
we tell the Anarchie that we did the vote and there is no majority for an alliance at this point of time. we ally with the Eagles. we try to trade some more with the Anarchie. some day in the future we cancel the deal, and x turns later we can go to war with them.
+: Lanzelot finds this very honorable
-: strategically very bad basis for a successful war
My ranking: last choice
2) the Ivan way (sorry if you feel I am abusing your name here):
everything like 1), but we do not tell the Anarchie anything about what else we are doing. whenever the time comes that we feel ready, we strike.
+: possible surprise element to hit them hard and fast; fun; fits our traits which are strong especially at the start (industrious) to the middle of the game [later everone has developed everything]; "vengeance is a dish best served cold" (The Godfather)
-: they could find out, and the Eagles could be dishonest, and we are doomed; the other disadvantage is, that if each of us gains control of his continent, an intercontinental war is much more difficult to win, or has an unforeseeable result. [could be different if we win against the Anarchos reasonably faster than they against the Küche]; "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." (Kung Fu Tse)
My ranking: currently #1
My ideas: get MM from Eagles, while we accumulate cash. develop fast, build up vet warriors. keep tech trades with Anarchie up until MA, trade their MA tech and declare.
ignite GA via Küche rather soon.
3) the Continental Alliance way:
we vote against the alliance plans with the Eagles and sign the pact with the Anarchos to keep it. Together we develop and have our joint research throughout the ages. Some day we take over the other continent, which should be easy when we are ahead by so much. Then we need some way to compete with them for victory.
+: no immediate risk of a loss; we already invested a lot of time into these negotiations; very likely to at least become 2nd in this competition, because the other two tribes may not really have a choice against our continent in this situation
-: they are arrogant and difficult; strategically their traits make the strong in the middle and late game, so we are losing our advantage compared to them; danger of killing our nerves.
My ranking: currently #2, but you would have to convince me that #1 is stupid, because i am posivitely too frustrated about d7&co to support this with my heart
4) the Single Game:
we do not sign an alliance at all, and tell that to everyone. we try to trade freely with every party and be the tech/etc broker of the game. we then would trade Republic either to no one or to everyone, but only if we can trade a lot for it.
+: no one to care about
-: not much of a chance against any other alliance
My ranking: currently #3; this is NOT the same as if the 2nd option Ivan´s way fails. in this case we would have everyone against us, which at least is not necessarily the case here.
that´s my 2 cents. if i did not forget another option, i think we should vote on this NOW and then proceed.
You forgot one:
5) Like 2, but we also add an alliance with the Küche and then try to keep each of the three "alliances" hidden from the remaining two players...
Ok, being serious again: you forgot to mention the major drawback of plan 2: it requires giving Republic to two tribes! This is what I don't like at all. Even if it takes them only 20 turns, everybody except our ally ought to spend those 600 beakers by themselves. Otherwise we have too easily wasted our biggest asset.
And: working with two allies is not that much faster than working with just one ally. (Perhaps 1-2 of the "big techs". Not more. Coordinating three teams will be much more complicated - especially if you want to hide it from one or both "allies"... There will be overlap, or times where one has to wait for someone else. However, two dedicated, well-coordinated teams can finish the AA in almost the same time.)
So basically, we don't gain that much advantage, but instead of nurturing one strong enemy, we nurture two...
After we found out that the Eagles are SEA, plan 4 is the worst now, I think. It may work for a very short time now, but we'll quickly loose our "tech-broker status", as the Eagles already have there curraghs started.
No, that should rather read as "Even Lanzelot finds this very stupid"...
So therefore my vote still goes to option 3).
very funny post Lanzelot. i am still laughing so loudly that my wife has this certain look for me:
thanks for pointing out that disadvantage. however, if i take Ivan's assessment, and if we want to ignite a war against the Anarchie, this should not be too bad (giving Rep to two civs), because one of the two won´t enjoy its effects for too long
but the important point is, i do not believe that anyone considers 2) to be FASTER than 3), but simply most seem simply mad with the Anarchos´ arrogance and diplomacy.
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