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Long term future plans/strategy.

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by I. Larkin, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    It may not work if AN declare first, or they find out that we betray them or whatever.

    So we must be ready at any moment. Also Eagles may betray us, so trade with them should be on "tech to tech" basis, with small short term credit.

    We should not left "traces" after us, our actions might/should have reasonable explanation. {no proof that Eagles get Rep from us, but did not research themselves}. We also may invent some "legend" for Anarchies, how we negotiate and what we can gain: say MM for WC and CB+Mysticism, but they betray us with Mysticism: blush:... They can't learn that we build lot of barracks and military: it was always "strong". We continue with Libraries, so our culture still high. Very probably (if Lanzelot help!!) we will able to fool them until MA.

    My choice obviously 2); next 4), then 1), an last 3) because of
    I already getting tired of AN and Lanzelot's unreasonable advocation of their interests. I can't withstand this for years.
     
  2. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    :yup:

    I think so too, but do not forget that d7 will calculate everything. So we must keep any story we are telling "simple". So I would simply stick to the truth towards the Eagles, and rather tell a "no deal"-story to the Anarchie. How on earth should the Eagles manage Rep AND MM? They won´t. So we should report that we were talking to them, but they are only ready to do trades for Rep, which we of course are not willing to, however they seem in quite good shape and are just about to start it themselves. Then ask, whether it is them (Anarchos) who have 35bpt currently, or otherwise the Eagles will possibly have it in <20t. We cannot find out about their alliance on the other continent... sth like that.
    We go for MM next (officially), which in fact the Eagles will research; the Anarchie should do Maths-CB, then Myst or WC (so HR opens up); we accumulate cash, then finish Con/Curr; Anarchie Poly; anyone HB.
    In the best case, we get two MA techs; in the worst case we have lots of enemies.

    if there was a majority for 4), i would not oppose it at all. we only won´t win then. but by what diplo in this game was like until now, i would not mind if we concentrate on ourselves only.
    but otherwise we are currently 2-1 pro 2).

    Memento, I saw you entering the thread, but no vote???
    ignas+Overseer please too, vote or post your thoughts for discussion until tomorrow, we have to go on.

    templar_x
     
  3. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    I have to say number 2, then 3, then 1, and finally 4. If there were honor, 1 would be ok, but the other teams plan treachery. So we dodge the knife in the back and hopefully plunge it in their heart...
     
  4. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    Yes, I did not know really what i vote for.i had to think long

    This
    makes it very difficult. If we broke this, this will affect to all Games in the future.

    If we make an alliance contract with anarchos and broke him,the same.

    Another point is the thought of who we go to war first.
    a war against hoplits is hard and a war against eagles (with dromons) and Küche (???) is not easier.
    1st war against the other continent makes the 2nd difficult,because we must fight on 2 continents.
    sry, but despite all the reservations against the anarchos, is the advantage by option 3 bigger for me.
    we can go for an early war against küche and anarchos must go the harder way against the eagles with Dromons.
     
  5. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    Proposal:
    we make an NAP with eagles with 5(?) turns period of notice
     
  6. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    currently we have 3 for option 2) then and 2 for 3). ignas has not voted yet.

    the one issue i see is that those who play PBEMs, on both forums, fear the reputation hit for their other games.

    those who do not play other PBEMs may be indifferent towards this.

    however, i do not know how to solve this. we need to see this team game as a separated thing from the other PBEM games you are playing. otherwise we had to say, e.g. my vote counts less than Lanzelot´s, because he is playing other PBEMs and i am not. this would not work, and honestly, nobody should or would accept this.

    so if ignas´ vote won´t change this result, we will follow the Ivan plan, and it will be necessary that EVERYONE does so. [in case ignas is pro 3) and causes a draw in this vote, i think we should stick to our treaties and tell the Eagles that we won´t engage into a deal with them.]

    I will PM ignas now.

    templar_x
     
  7. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, besides the fact that I'm really a bit out of time after two long chats with d7, this was another reason why I refrained from further diplomacy last week. Don't want my name connected with such a thing.

    Here is another purely strategic point, which I want you to consider:
    at the moment we are a full 3 techs ahead of the other continent, even before the benefits of Republic:
    • Eagles and Küche both payed the full price for Writing. (Calis told us that they just recently met the Küche, and Writing must have been finished a long time ago.) On our continent only one side researched Writing!
    • We got Code of Laws for free.
    • We had consistently higher research, which over the last 50 turns has probably summed up to more than 100b
    These three techs are: Iron, Literature and a big portion of Republic. In order that the Eagles can be useful for us, we would at least need to gift them Rep + Lit! And what do we gain for it? We can collect a few hundred gold, while the Eagles make MM for us... Honestly: this means giving up a very big strategic advantage for the short-sighted short-term gain of a few hundred gold/beakers. Like Esau selling his right of the first-born for a bowl of pea-soup...
    If we deny these two techs to them, we can increase our lead even more during the next 30-50 turns.

    And also: there are two possibilities of how the situation is on the other continent:
    • either the Eagles have very good relations with the Küche; then it would be a serious mistakte to give them Rep/Lit (for obvious reasons...)
    • or they have a "difficult" relation (more likely, after what Calis told us, however, we can't be 100% sure, because in that case the Küche would need to look for a partner as well, but up to now they didn't even respond to our proposal?!) Then the Eagles will have a hard time getting a good cooperation going, while we can coordinate perfectly with the Anarchos, increasing our advantage even more. (If Ivan and templar don't like doing negotiations with them, I can do it. I have no problems with them.)

    Also don't forget: Republic not only means higher research, but also faster growth and consequently more production. So we can easily get a lead over the other continent in infrastructure (harbors, libs markets) or military (making a war easier than Memento is afraid of). With two "military masters" like Ivan and Memento in our team, it should be no problem to conquer the bigger half of the other continent, while the Anarchos only capture a smaller portion. But Memento is right: a successful war requires tech lead + production lead, both of which will be hard to achieve, if we give them Rep.

    And another strategy that should be kept in mind (templar used it in a test game with me): The Byzantines are vulnerable to getting a "wasted GA". If they are careless and send out a Dromon too early, we can attack them with a damaged curragh and give them a despotic/anarchic GA... (That's how templar completely ruined my game in our test game... Though he did it "accidentally"...) If we give them Rep too early, that option is gone.
     
  8. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    As I wrote in "Eagles" our format of Alliance will be different. My impression that Anarchies can't be a good partner even with Republic. Eagels more organized and predictable.
     
  9. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    It was you who stated, that we need to be really democratic as a team, shall not take arguments personal, but each offer our own arguments and stay by what the majority wants and support the chosen path as good as he can.

    I would support any direction the team goes, and I have proven that already, and honestly, by you own standards, I expect the same from you.

    "Not wanting to be connected" to what the team decides is not a fair statement or action.

    templar_x
     
  10. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    When we discussed 30 turn NAP me and t-x make clear that it is fake treaty by it nature.
    Later "GW around kinder-garden " was clear that all diplomacy is some "cover" of our treachery.
    I thought it was decided, isn't it?
     
  11. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Well, I will go with what the majority decides, but that does not mean that I shouldn't try my best up to the last minute to prevent the majority from commiting what I'm convinced is a serious strategic mistake... ;)

    In any case, if none of you changes his mind and ignas doesn't show up, we should go ahead and implement your plan without loosing more time.
    But I insist that we are about to throw away our nice hard-earned advantage for nothing. :(
     
  12. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    That is what I wanted to hear before I go on.

    Without Lanzelot, I would not have become a member of this team. Even though I might see some things a bit differently, and he does from me, I highly appreciate his efforts so that this game ever started first place, and that this team is set up in such a way.

    I will check tonight whether ignas showed up and changed everything again. If not, what do you think: Lanzelot continues the diplo with the Anarchie, and I do so with the Eagles?

    templar_x
     
  13. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    It will be hard for me (knowing that it is only "show" what could have been a great cooperation), but I'm ready to do so.

    So we "sign" their proposal, say we will start MM, while they can try the cheap stuff and afterwards Currency, make preparations for the settlement plan and also give them the current information of the other continent? I can also suggest plans for an invasion and tell them our plan of "limited trading with the Eagles in order to prevent a tight cooperation between Eagles/Küche, perhaps even igniting a war between them".
     
  14. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    yes, basically we agree.

    We shall add, that we translated and discussed everything, blablabla, and that we agree with the single minimal change, that the southern lake/fish in the Great Lake is of course ours, if the northern lake/fish is theirs.

    Thus 3b goes (correcting the plural as well, there is only one southern channel of the Great Lake):
    b) Dem freien Volk steht der Kanalstandort am Nordende des großen Sees zu. Der Bruderschaft steht der Kanalstandort im Süden des großen Sees zu. Der Bruderschaft steht der Tabak südöstlich des großen Sees zu. Der nordwestliche Fisch des großen Sees steht dem freien Volk zu, der südöstliche Fisch der Bruderschaft.

    The rest sounds ok to me.

    Re science: As you said, they go Maths and small techs, we go MM next.

    Re diplo: Yes, tell them about the other continent. That we were talking to the Eagles, and that the Küche does not talk to us. Ask what they think about limited trade with the Eagles if we see the possibility that they do not cooperate intensively. They of course will say no.
    Next turn we tell them the Eagles got CoL and will be faster towards Rep than we would have thought. Or whatever.

    Re military: sth like "we are still doing some exploration to find the best way for you to the other continent." Who we believe that the other tribes are (sum of Memento´s and Ivan´s guesses for both). When and which kind of troops we shall ship over to cause havoc.

    templar_x
     
  15. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Good that you didn't post yet, because we really need to think twice here! I just had a very sleepless night, this thing was troubeling me even in my dreams. And here is what I've been dreaming about:
    • Why did the Küche still not talk to us? If they really have a bad relation with the Eagles, it should be their most important goal to secure a cooperation/friendship with us!!
    • Why did they research things like Ceremonial Burial and Iron Working, when they still have neither Philo nor CoL? At the same time the Eagles research Philo and CoL, but no military techs... Very suspicious. They must have a research agreement to the effect that Eagles take care of a government, while Küche does something else in the meantime.
    • The fact that the Küche did CB tells me they are scientific (Persia/Ottoman), and they are trying for an SGL. Because why would anybody research CB at this point of time?!? It would be complete nonsense to research that now, because there's so much more important stuff to get. They can only "afford" to side-step to CB, if they know that the Eagles are friendly towards them.

    This is exactly what Cyc did in Rise of Japan to me: pretending to be interested in a cooperation, taking my techs, then giving everything to his original partner (Calis) and attacking me instead of paying me...
    If we don't stop this nonsense now, I can tell you exactly what is going to happen in this game: they take as many techs as they can get from us (especially Lit and Rep), then laugh at us and continue their cooperation with the Küche. Meanwhile the Anarchos find out what we did, and prepare their defenses, so when we reach the MA they are ready for war and don't need to give us the MA tech (and we can't punish them: it will still take ages, before we get Knights or even Cav, and Swordsmen against Hoplites is no fun).

    So in effect we have gifted Republic to the rest of the world and get nothing in return! templar, Ivan, you have said that negotiating with the Anarchos is no fun for you and you don't want to do it for the next 3 years. But I say, playing in such an obviously stupid way is no fun for me either...! First we work very hard like real masters to gain a great advantage over the rest of the world -- and then we go around like Santa Claus and give it to all of them in a nicely wrapped parcel... :santa2:

    I hope I can still change your mind, before it is too late.
     
  16. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    I wrote an email to Calis when I learnt about the Küche researching IW.

    I must say that this changes quite a bit for me!!!

    It is pretty obvious that they must have a deal, and in fact there is even another argument for it: the extremely slow last move by the Küche. While they are not talking to us, they must have been talking to the Eagles extensively.

    L´s deduction that Küche must be SCI when they research CB is logical.

    The only deal for now I can see that we could safely make is Lit for MM.

    Unless the Eagles come up with a really good explanation and lose a town to Immortals very soon, this option is closed I fear.

    Then we only have the choice: continue to work on a lead together with the Anarchie and take the whole continent rather soon; or stay in that alliance for quite a bit longer and try to take the other continent together first.

    templar_x
     
  17. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    from Eagles diplo thread
    other point against 2.)
    what happens if eagles+anarchos have the same freetech?

    thats a very good point.

    we don´t know when Küche research CB. maybe they wants to go first to Mona and change their mind later?
     
  18. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    same freetech would be the risk. no risk no chance.

    t_x
     
  19. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    If the same and Anarch give us we will not trade with Eagles.
     
  20. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    u will give them rep before they have the freetech. its the same the deal is rep for MM?

    i don´t like the anarchos too and i love a funny risk game but this way isn´t good.

    if this true,it seems that the eagles like our plan 2 :D
     

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