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Long term future plans/strategy.

Discussion in 'The Knights’ Brotherhood' started by I. Larkin, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I think we must continue negotiation with Anarhos. Although perspectives are poor we may make useful deal and continue both research plans: Anarchies and Eagles. Idea is in post #133.
    This is development of "Ivan's plan".
     
  2. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    me too

    no trade with both ecxept there is an advantage for anarchos and us. what if the eagles will do the same with Küche and us?
     
  3. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    both=Küche+Eagles?
     
  4. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    sry.
    not with both, only with one (anarchos)
     
  5. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    :confused:
    could you please write in German what you do mean. thx

    t_x
     
  6. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    templar, I think he meant "keinen Handel mit beiden gleichzeitig"?! Also "both=Anarchos+Eagles".

    My vote still goes to "tight research cooperation with Anarchos, no key technologies should be traded to anyone else". (Key technologies at the moment are: Republic, Literature, Map Making and later Currency.) Exception could be something like the Lit-MM trade, if that prevents a tight Eagles-Küche cooperation, but I guess the Eagles will not agree to that...

    Reason: we don't need to create two strong enemies, one is more than enough. Extra benefit from "second ally" is not big enough in my eyes to justify this. This risks of getting caught or being betrayed by one or the other partner and then not getting any "RoI" are too high.
    You say the Anarchos are to selfish to be trusted. But on the other hand: in this game none of the 4 parties can be trusted... :D So we need to prepare a very good defense in any case, whether we go with the Eagles or with the Anarchos or with both...

    So looks like we have a 2-2 stalemate at the moment.
     
  7. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    We know that Anarchos has plans to backstab us (BTW, very stupid to let us know that), but only sometime in the future. I agree to fair trade with them, as long as the strings they put on such deals aren't overly binding. As far as trading high value tech around, we need maximum value to make it worthwhile. They will get those techs eventually, just a matter of when. I see Republic as worth a first tier MA tech or 2 final tier AA techs, and we should get that value out of it at least. If not, they can damn well resarch it themselves! Whether that breaks the stalemate, I don't know.
     
  8. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Basically we have four options and we have to decide in 6 turns:

    1) Give to Eagles but not to Anarhos (honorable plan)
    2) Give Republic to both (Ivan's plan)
    3) Give to anarhos but not eagles (Lanzelot's plan)
    4) give to nobody (single game plan).
    It has some nuances, but basically it corresponds to what we discussed before.
    My rate is 2-1-3-4, however I see little difference in 1 and 2, big gap ibt 1 and 3.
    it is hard rate 4, but advantage of 4 that we theoretically can go to other variants after we chose 4.
    I advise many time to continue negotiations, it will finally bend us to some choice.
     
  9. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    the problem is that 1) won´t be seen as honorable by anyone else. we immediately break the existing Rep-MA tech deal with the Anarchie.

    what i really dislike about this discussion is that i do not see that everyone is willing to openly say that EACH WAY bears its risks. the "Anarchie way" is very risky as well, and other than every other civ, they have already PROVEN to be a risk factor.

    so if we cannot re-negotiate the Anarchie deal, i see neither a clear path to victory by option 3) nor any strategic options left with an unchanged deal. in fact, just like L puts it whenever it seems there will be no deal with the Anarchos, i in a very contrary say, if we sign that deal, we STRATEGICALLY LOST this game. that is, if we are not ready to break it later. this is the only loophole left then, and honestly, i would not think a minute any more to use it when it seems appropriate. this is not my usual way of how to treat my allies, hell i even introduced a new series of "honorable" games in the XOTM when it is about how to treat the AI :lol:, but here... no more words need to be said.

    templar_x
     
  10. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I got some horrible thought:
    Imagine: anarhos research nothing, just staple cash. They have high spt, build many warriors, they just wait when we turn to Anarchy connect iron and send Swords vs our warriors...
    Does not matter with or without our gift of republic...
     
  11. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Yes, exactly that is what I had planned to... ah, sorry, you are talking about the Anarchos. Right, that would be as bad as it would be if we were the aggressor. I do not believe it would be possible for us to mount that by the arrival of Rep, nor do I believe that they are able to do that. However, we should not stay totally defenseless back home, even when we follow the "new plan" and go into that sole alliance with the Anarchie.

    The strategic possibilities of this are quite narrow, other than the "sealed path to victory" which Lanzelot and lately Memento describe. It is not there.
    They will simply become stronger and stronger, even though they might be playing worse, because of their scientific trait. half price libs we might be able to compensate with forest chopping and better playing, half price unis, if this becomes a science game, cannot be compensated because they are so expensive. Not to speak of the extremely valuable and expensive free tech that WE do not receive in the modern age...

    So the ONLY way to win this will become that we get a much fairer share of this world and especially the other continent, and to some extent our own continent. that is, if we do not decide to break the deal and simply attack them. which i support if we go with the "old alliance deal" and do not support in the "new alliance deal" as proposed by myself.

    therefore, if nothing changes towards what i would prefer generally:
    - tell the Eagles that we do not work together with them.
    - this will of course immediately cause them go co-operate with the Küche
    - we invade the Küche as soon as we feel this is possible and good. this will either be rather soon if we want to start the GA early, or we only send 4 horses like i believed Memento suggested and we send our NM over and start the GA when we go for a real invasion. we should make concrete plans for whatever option we decide on as soon as the diplo is fixed!
    - we try to take Küche land asap, and then join into the war with the Eagles and take a good portion of their lands as well.

    This may be enough to prepare us either for the ss competition with the Anarchos, or the final war, and I even hope to some extent that they choose a final military showdown. I still do not see at all how you guys can be so excited about running a long-term game against a scientific+commercial tribe that we even are going to nurture with Republic and quite excessive tech deals... really, d7 may even prove right when he said that we seem to not be able to keep a technology lead position! however, at least i see A CHANCE to do so now with the "new deal" and the changes i had put into it.

    templar_x
     
  12. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    Why? as I understood I, t-x and Ov are for it...
     
  13. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Maybe I misunderstood Overseer here. But like he expressed, I did not feel that he voted against the alliance, only for a modified one compared to the one that is on the table.

    I tried to do what I believe should be more than the minimum for us in this alliance and the maximum the Anarchos - maybe - will accept. That is my proposal. If someone believes we can obtrude anything else on them that might get accepted, speak up!

    But what I suggested, and only a suggestion it is, is based on what I believe could be realistic. And there will not be an alliance with the Anarchos including "free trade". We could, if you guys think that is clever, add to my proposal to the Anarchos that we have the wish to trade Rep to the Eagles, because we want more than the free MA tech they give us for it, or Lit for MM, or whatever. But this I could not derive from Overseer´s post, who stated that Rep is worth one 1st tier MA tech. That´s what we get from the Anarchie...

    But I do not see a majority for the Ivan way, only Ivan himself and me. Which does not yet mean that we agree to the alliance with the Anarchie, which will be another vote and requires a majority as well. However, if they agree to "my" proposal (and before that, you guys agree to posting it as counter-proposal), I would accept this as our way, although the game will be less interesting to me and the chances to win are lower in my eyes. Sure the Ivan way, or my ideas how to do it, are risky, but one cannot expect in such a game that you will win with a strategy that does not take any risk.

    templar_x
     
  14. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    We can't force eagles research 2 upper tech for us. They can research rep in 15 and they will if we will not make an agreement NOW. If we disagree for MM+40% (that is 60% in total) we simply get nothing, but will delay them 15 turns only.
    With such unreliable partner like Anarhos it is not much.

    Also, my flexible plan at post #133 allows alliance with Anarhos if it will be "fair deal" like overseer mentioned.

    I am affraid that we automatically fall to #4 single game if we will not make deal with eagles now and anarchie will not accept fair trade.
     
  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    true, but probably not as bad as it sounds.

    currently we work together with Anarchie in that way and it is definitely BETTER than signing the actual proposal. it would become a defacto-alliance, since our NAP ties us to a peaceful co-existence anyway.

    even a REAL #4 game would make more sense to me than a "old deal" alliance with the Anarchie. if we only decided to go for that, we could make the Rep-deal with the Eagles now and work together with the Anarchie just like until now.

    templar_x
     
  16. Memento

    Memento The World is mine

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    ein grund warum ich die ally mit den anarchos fortsetzen will ist der nap den wir mit ihnen haben.
    vom cifo bin ich es gewohnt das verträge nicht gebrochen werden.
    deswegen war ich auch gg diesen nap mit einer so langen kündigungsfrist.
    nun ja, mitgehangen mitgefangen.
    das sie gg uns krieg führen werden ist eine ganz normale aussage, da es im dg keinen allianzsieg gibt.
    spaceship ist in einen dg ist etwas unrealistisch und im krieg haben wir eh die besseren chancen.
     
  17. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Maybe I should explain why I stated in my new proposal to the Anarchos why we "want" a SS competition:

    Anything else, together with our wish for changes in the latest proposal, sounds unavoidably like if WE want to go to war.

    So this is what we suggest, and they may dislike the SS competition and even accept the change of the NAP I would give them a hint for as an alternative.

    templar_x
     
  18. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, I think the suggestion of an SS competition (and otherwise changing the NAP) is a very smart move!
     
  19. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    I believe that Overseer should feel ok with what is currently discussed, if I understood him correctly. Memento was in here but did not post, please do so. Ivan let me know if you oppose that plan.

    We have used 1 time-out, so i will post everything either tonight or tomorrow morning.

    Just to repeat it:
    the big risk of what we are doing here is that the Anarchos do not accept the deal we propose, and the Eagles (very likely) are lost for us as allies for this game. i would not choose to go that way but join into an alliance with the Eagles as you know.

    templar_x
     
  20. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

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    I agree with this plan. Go ahead with eagles deal. 40 or 50% for your choice.
     

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