Longbows or X-bows?

[CivCorpse]

I have a dilema. Gilgamesh refuses my polite request for 70gold. So Now he must DIE. We both have Ivory. He has HBR and I have Construction. I can research HBR in 5 turns. He can probably research Construction in about the same amount of time. Though he probably already has stables built. What makes Jumbo vs Jumbo war unattractive is that he has 19 cities and I have 8. He will easily out produce me in the big nose horse department. I do have a pretty decent tech lead on him. I have Compass, CS and Construction. (I made a little deviation for compass because HC built the TOA and GLH for me.
I also completed the Elite swordsmen quest so I spammed about 12 of them. They will be upgraded to CR3 Maces.

Now my question(s).
I can research either Fuedalism or Machinery in 15 turns (Marathon Huge). Should I go the Fuedalism route for Longbows, switch to vassalage and spam Longbows while researching Machinery for Maces? That is 30 turns combined. Or Machinery->Engineering for X-bows->Pikes. 37 turns combined. Pikes will easily handle the Jumbos and HAs. And as he is missing both expensive techs for maces the X-bows will clobber his swords,spears and axes. The drawback is that I miss out on vassalage for the extra xp.
I built NE in Timbuktu because it has some wonders including GL. It is by far my best production city. I am thinking IW there later. It is coastal and freshwater so it can deal with health issues. Should I build HE in the former Incan capital? or wait until I see what Gilgamesh has to offer. Cuzco has decent production now and potential for the future.
I know I should have scouted gilgamesh by now but I have been busy.

Kumblai Saleh is building Chichen itza for failure cash. Then again I might let it finish just to deny it to an AI. Particulary Gilgamesh who I traded CoL to a while ago. Failure cash means not having to drop the slider to upgrade the swords to maces.

Gao is building a mini stack of Triremes to post 1N2NE of Umma to cut off support from that little island. Also to reinforce my seafood protection.

Once I get a decent foothold in Sumeria I can start leveling his Production advantage. But I need to get in there soon before he gets x-bows himself to beat up on my maces and pikes.

I am currently leaning towards machinery->Engineering followed by Fuedalism->Calender->Optics. With the anticipated plunge in my economy from grabbing 10+ cities I am pretty much out of the Lib race. So I want the circumnavigation bonus since intercontinental war is looming.

 

[DaveMcW]

Longbows or X-bows?

Maces is all you need.

 

[Levgre]

"Should I go the Fuedalism route for Longbows, switch to vassalage and spam Longbows while researching Machinery for Maces?"

You don't have civil service, do you? In that case you wouldn't be getting Maces... or do you mean maces in the future.

 

[UWHabs]

Haven't opened the save, but for war, getting Maces early will be a big boost. I'd maybe even considering going HBR -> machinery -> Eng -> Feudalism. Then, you can spawn elephants, then get your maces going (especially if you're going to upgrade them, you can spend the 15 turns building elephants and cats, and you can just send your first invasion force in with elephants, cats, and macemen. Then when you get eng, you can bring wave 2 to include pikemen and trebs.

But really, if you can get to his core cities before he can spam jumbos and longbows, you can easily walk over him with your own jumbos and macemen, especially CR3 ones. You won't even need too many catapults if he doesn't have longbows.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Crossbows, Pikes, and Trebuchets are all you need to wipe out a civ. Give Feudalism a miss.

 

[CivCorpse]

Maces is all you need.

Shock Jumbos will beat my poor little maces into the ground. He can easily out produce me in the Jumbo department so I lose out. Once I research Machinery I lose the abiltity to produce CR3 swordsmen straight from the barracks (settled GG in Timbuktu) so i don't want to lose any.

"Should I go the Fuedalism route for Longbows, switch to vassalage and spam Longbows while researching Machinery for Maces?"

You don't have civil service, do you? In that case you wouldn't be getting Maces... or do you mean maces in the future.

I most certainly do have Civil service

Crossbows, Pikes, and Trebuchets are all you need to wipe out a civ. Give Feudalism a miss.

With CR3 Maces i won't need Trebs for a while. Cats will do just fine. I will probably use Trebs in the second war to wipe him out.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can make your own jumbos, or spears, and that will keep the elephants off your maces. The AI isn't too terribly aggressive with elephants anyway.

 

[Agramon]

To vassalize Gilga doesn't suit your plans? I nearly always do, in order to avoid unfavorable land and to get some TR. Works fine for me ;-)

Otherwise I'd go with machinery, but I'm not sure whether that disturbs your bulbing, iirc you cannot bulb lib with machinery ;-)

 

[djvandrake]

I have a dilema. Gilgamesh refuses my polite request for 70gold. So Now he must DIE.

Now my question(s).
I can research either Fuedalism or Machinery in 15 turns (Marathon Huge). Should I go the Fuedalism route for Longbows, switch to vassalage and spam Longbows while researching Machinery for Maces? That is 30 turns combined. Or Machinery->Engineering for X-bows->Pikes. 37 turns combined. Pikes will easily handle the Jumbos and HAs. And as he is missing both expensive techs for maces the X-bows will clobber his swords,spears and axes. The drawback is that I miss out on vassalage for the extra xp.

Depends on your style. Are you the hyper-aggressive type that plunges full on into war taking everything in sight as fast as possible? I'm not. I'm more of the calculated risk type that commits only when I have a sizeable advantage. Given that Gillie has a production advantage with more cities, I'd go for the second option to get those pikes. They can really be worth the effort to blunt his jumbo counter-attack, and the X-bows will easilly handle any of his melee units. Research Fuedalism after Engineering, get those maces to commit to push you over the top once his Jumbos are safely handled by your pikes.

Then again, I'm not the best warmonger, but that's my opinion.

 

[z0wb13]

from looking at your post, it looks like you have everything you need to go from machinery to civil service. build suicide xbows while waiting for civ service to come in. maces, especially CR upgraded maces with catapult support, are the best city attackers at this time. the extra experience from vassalage is easily mitigated by a few extra shock-troops, and long bows are always worse on the attack than xbows.

but what i really think you need to look at are all of the techs that you didn't need to research.

monarchy might not have been necessary. i didn't actually look at the save file, so i don't know, but you don't need monarchy for maces. also, monotheism and polytheism are *relatively expensive techs that can be obtained later, while priesthood and meditation allow temples, monasteries and a chance for an oracle sling-shot.

i think this is probably the earliest way to get maces easily; researching: writing through pottery-> CoL through priesthood-> maths -> civil service. you will need to have bronze working relatively early so that you can use the whip to build your infrastructure and *always settle cities by at least one bonus food resource (*always whip a granary first, then never use less than two pop per whip). i would think that having an organized leader in this type of game would be a good strategy because it is a huge map with many cities and cheap courts would be very powerful and inexpensive. however, the maya are expansive and financial. luckily, financial is great for aggressive expansion. also, the mayan ball-courts (happy+3) are relatively cheap and this will help to compensate for skipping monarchy and HR, though this requires a divergence from the tech path through masonry and construction.

so even though a more direct path- assuming you have iron working and pottery, for metal casting and machinery- would be: writing->math->currency->civil service, currency takes a long time to come in. also, i usually play normal-sized maps where its effects would not be as strong on a large- or huge-sized maps.

deciding on how and when to get to machinery and iron working is only complicated by what kinds of great people your civ decides to pop and what they can light-bulb. i would *definitely use a great person to bulb machinery, metal casting or CoL. also, even at high difficulties, you can try to build/chop/whip the oracle without marble if priesthood is taken early enough (another helpful aspect of the mayans is that they start with mysticism).

also, even though i recommend ignoring monarchy when trying to get maces as absolutely early as possible, in most games this would be a poor strategy. this is because there are relatively few choices besides HR for happiness, at least until you reach calendar. and even then you will need some trading partners.

the two *best techs to start with for early maces are what the maya have: mysticism and mining. i think you would get the most beakers by taking the wheel and agriculture, but mysticism gives you a shot at founding buddhism for happiness and you need bronze working asap to whip/chop granaries and libraries asap.

 

[pi-r8]

seems like catapults plus elephants should be more than enough, with some spearmen to defend. I don't see what longbows or X-bows will do for you here. and 9 cities against 18 is more than enough to match the AI production.

 

[kossin]

Catapults, jumbos, spears and swords. You can usually trade for Feudalism down the line, so I'd go Machinery for maces.

 

[CivCorpse]

from looking at your post, it looks like you have everything you need to go from machinery to civil service. build suicide xbows while waiting for civ service to come in. maces, especially CR upgraded maces with catapult support, are the best city attackers at this time. the extra experience from vassalage is easily mitigated by a few extra shock-troops, and long bows are always worse on the attack than xbows.

I already HAVE Civil Service (as stated in the original post). Why would I build suicide x-bows when I can use cheaper cats that do collateral. And why would I ever consider using longbows on the attack if I have any sort of metal?

but what i really think you need to look at are all of the techs that you didn't need to research.

monarchy might not have been necessary. i didn't actually look at the save file, so i don't know, but you don't need monarchy for maces. also, monotheism and polytheism are *relatively expensive techs that can be obtained later, while priesthood and meditation allow temples, monasteries and a chance for an oracle sling-shot.

Until I popped silver in a mine I had only one happiness resource. Monarchy was for HR so I could have cities large enough to work cottages/use the whip and work the mines. HR is also Gilgamesh's favorite civic. When I researched Poly it was pretty cheap. Like 5 turns on marathon. It is a prerequisite for Literature. And that gives me NE, HE and The Great Library. I have marble so that was worth the effort.

*always settle cities by at least one bonus food resource (*always whip a granary first, then never use less than two pop per whip).

IF there is a food resource available. (in two of my 8 cities there was no food available but I wanted the resource. Also on Marathon most units before trebs and Jumbos are 1 pop whips.

i would think that having an organized leader in this type of game would be a good strategy because it is a huge map with many cities and cheap courts would be very powerful and inexpensive. however, the maya are expansive and financial. luckily, financial is great for aggressive expansion. also, the mayan ball-courts (happy+3) are relatively cheap and this will help to compensate for skipping monarchy and HR, though this requires a divergence from the tech path through masonry and construction.

Not sure what organized leaders and the mayans have to do with this particular game.

so even though a more direct path- assuming you have iron working and pottery, for metal casting and machinery-

Iron is needed for x-bows, but for metal casting you need pottery and bronze working. Machinery only needs metal casting. Iron working is only a prerequisite for Steel and Compass.

deciding on how and when to get to machinery and iron working is only complicated by what kinds of great people your civ decides to pop and what they can light-bulb. i would *definitely use a great person to bulb machinery, metal casting or CoL. also, even at high difficulties, you can try to build/chop/whip the oracle without marble if priesthood is taken early enough (another helpful aspect of the mayans is that they start with mysticism).

Actually built the oracle this game. And again you keep mentioning the Mayans.

also, even though i recommend ignoring monarchy when trying to get maces as absolutely early as possible, in most games this would be a poor strategy. this is because there are relatively few choices besides HR for happiness, at least until you reach calendar. and even then you will need some trading partners.

HR is huge in the early game unless you have lots of gold/silver/religions/

the two *best techs to start with for early maces are what the maya have: mysticism and mining. i think you would get the most beakers by taking the wheel and agriculture, but mysticism gives you a shot at founding buddhism for happiness and you need bronze working asap to whip/chop granaries and libraries asap.

The best techs to start with for any non-religious strategy are worker techs. Bigger more developed cities are better for longer term research plans than a cheap tech like mysticism. And do you think i am playing as the mayans? I am Mali.

seems like catapults plus elephants should be more than enough, with some spearmen to defend. I don't see what longbows or X-bows will do for you here. and 9 cities against 18 is more than enough to match the AI production.

Longbows and x-bows are for garrisoning the cities I take. War elephants are not as good of city defenders. Since I need Machinery for maces might as well build x-bows. Plus to get shock jumbos I would either need to build them in Timbuktu with the settled GG or build a stable. Stables cost 1 1/2 x-bows in hammers. And even then a CR2 sword still has 31% combat odds. Gilgamesh was at war with the english for a bit. I am sure he has some cr2 swords. Plus to build Jumbos i would need to research HBR as well. Which delays machinery 6 more turns.

Catapults, jumbos, spears and swords. You can usually trade for Feudalism down the line, so I'd go Machinery for maces.

Pretty much what I decided but with engineering at the end for Pikes. Building x-bows for 22 turns while i research engineering then whip a pike in all 8 cities the turn i get engineering.

 

[CHEESE!]

Is Giles in WHEOOHRN? Do you have lots of time to prepare? I think that the Machinery-Engineering works.

 

[Gwynnja]

Why haven't you scouted his lands yet?

 

[EmperorFool]

Why aren't you playing as the Mayans?! OMFG, they rule!

Heh, couldn't resist.

Anyhoo, I agree with the Machinery -> Engineering crowd. I might be tempted to squeeze HBR in first, but it depends on whether or not you have a city that could quickly build a Stable and some Oliphants, but that's mostly because I have a soft spot for Jumbos.

If you are concerned about executing your land-grab ASAP, skip HBR.

 

[CivCorpse]

Is Giles in WHEOOHRN? Do you have lots of time to prepare? I think that the Machinery-Engineering works.

Giggles is friendly so I can take forever if i choose to delay. However his tech rate is much higher than mine so if I delay too long I could be on the short end of a military tech advantage.

Why haven't you scouted his lands yet?

Because I get all wrapped up in what i am doing and forget to. Even building a chariot/scout and setting it to "auto-explore" is too much to be bothered with.


*Update on the game* I actually scouted around Sumeria and he has a LOT of troops. He also had Civil service which i was not aware of. By the time I finished Machinery and was building a few x-bows he researched machinery in like 10 turns. With the AI upgrading ability I did not want to walk into his lands and face his SOD with a smaller inferior SOD. For those that opened the save you probably saw the chokepoint created by the mountains. I built a little string of Forts there on the hills. I switched research to Fuedalism-> Guilds while building some galleys and a lot of cats. Once Fuedalism came in I teched HBR and built a stable and some knights. Teched Engineering while spamming longbows. At the turn of DOW I sent my little assault force over to the island to the SE and captured Giggles cities there. With TGLH they were almost instantly profitable. His counter attacking SOD was butchered at the border. Heavy catapulting followed by knights attacking. The Longbows in forts on hills took down a lot of his troops as well.

The war goes on....

 

[z0wb13]

reread your original post. your mention of chichen itza made me think of the maya game i was playing.

i didn't understand what you would need feudalism for if you had civ service and iron and CoL and cats. the obvious answer seems to be machinery for maces, especially because you intended to capture 10+ cities from a neighbor. also, i still haven't looked at your save.

so but i guess that it does make a bit of a difference if you are playing mali. if you have skirmishers, maybe not research feudalism until much later so that you can build cheap drill-three shock-troops to throw ahead of CR3 maces. also, since you don't get mysticism to start- probably won't found an early religion- going up through polytheism is sensible if you intend to build at least one of those wonders you mentioned.

but, aesthetics by itself is a rather expensive tech. if your plan was to get to maces asap, or whenever you got the sword event, why bother getting all that artsy-fartsy crap? unless you have been trading for a lot of these techs. but i just haven't looked at the save game and don't even know what year it is. 785ad? did you build GLib? was literature really a crucial war tech? these divergences are probably what allowed the ai to get to civ service itself. but it still doesn't matter, because the ai sucks at warfare.



i do like the mixed stack strategy that you mention in the update. flank attacks are great on the defense. with a little luck and planning, you can usually beat a much larger SoD by luring the ai into a trap; opening with cavalry from a fortified position to destroy its artillery.

i would also posit that HBR, which you mentioned in your post, is generally undervalued on these boards. and i agree that catapults are great on the defense.

 

[CivCorpse]

reread your original post. your mention of chichen itza made me think of the maya game i was playing.

i didn't understand what you would need feudalism for if you had civ service and iron and CoL and cats. the obvious answer seems to be machinery for maces, especially because you intended to capture 10+ cities from a neighbor. also, i still haven't looked at your save.

so but i guess that it does make a bit of a difference if you are playing mali. if you have skirmishers, maybe not research feudalism until much later so that you can build cheap drill-three shock-troops to throw ahead of CR3 maces. also, since you don't get mysticism to start- probably won't found an early religion- going up through polytheism is sensible if you intend to build at least one of those wonders you mentioned.

but, aesthetics by itself is a rather expensive tech. if your plan was to get to maces asap, or whenever you got the sword event, why bother getting all that artsy-fartsy crap? unless you have been trading for a lot of these techs. but i just haven't looked at the save game and don't even know what year it is. 785ad? did you build GLib? was literature really a crucial war tech? these divergences are probably what allowed the ai to get to civ service itself. but it still doesn't matter, because the ai sucks at warfare.



i do like the mixed stack strategy that you mention in the update. flank attacks are great on the defense. with a little luck and planning, you can usually beat a much larger SoD by luring the ai into a trap; opening with cavalry from a fortified position to destroy its artillery.

i would also posit that HBR, which you mentioned in your post, is generally undervalued on these boards. and i agree that catapults are great on the defense.

Didin't decide to go to war soon enough. I did get parth and GL. As for Lit being a crucuial war tech. Not usually but when facing a larger foe with a major production edge, the HE can really help.

 

[ppciv4]

Gilgamesh refuses my polite request for 70gold. So Now he must DIE.

you're master on finding a reason for war...