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Looking at Luxuries (2-1 Version+)

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Gazebo, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Hey all,

    Main page discussion on resources prompted me to bring @Deadstarre 's concepts here for further discussion. The shift towards tiles for city working means that resource imbalances are more noticeable. Let's figure that out.

    I'm not looking for an overhaul, but let's find the worst offenders from both ends of the spectrum and bring them to the middle.

    The current suggestion from Deadstarre:

    Calendar
    Spoiler :

    Citrus 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; garden 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5science:
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5food:; garden 2 :c5gold:; 2 :c5culture:

    Cocoa 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; garden 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5culture:
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; garden 2 :c5food:; 2 :c5science:

    Cotton 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 2 :c5gold:; caravansaries 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; 3 :c5gold:
    to 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture:; caravansaries 1 :c5food: 2 :c5production:; 3 :c5gold:

    Dye 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; amphitheatre 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 3 :c5gold:
    to 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; amphitheatre 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; 3 :c5gold:

    Incense 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5faith:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5faith:
    to 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5faith: 1 :c5food:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5food:; 2 :c5faith:

    Silk 2 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; amphitheatre 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:
    to 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5culture:; amphitheatre 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:

    Spices 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; market 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; 2 :c5culture:
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; market 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5culture:

    Sugar 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; market 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food: growth
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; market 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food: growth

    Wine 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5faith:
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5faith:; 2 :c5faith:

    Coffee 1 :c5food:; 2 :c5gold:; grocer 2 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5production:
    to 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; grocer 2 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5production:

    Tea 2 :c5production:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; grocer 2 :c5gold: 1 :c5production:; +10% :c5culture:
    to 2 :c5food:; 2 :c5gold:; grocer 2 :c5production:; +10% :c5culture:

    Tobacco 2 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; grocer 3 :c5gold:; 2 :c5faith:
    to 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; grocer 2 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5faith:

    Olive 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; arena 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food: growth
    to 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; arena 1 :c5food: 2 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food: growth

    Perfume 1 :c5culture:; 2 :c5gold:; arena 2 :c5culture:; 3 :c5gold:
    to 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; arena 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; 3 :c5gold:



    Mining
    Spoiler :

    Copper 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5gold:; forge 2 :c5gold:; +10% :c5production:
    to 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5production: 2 :c5gold:; forge 1 :c5production:; +10% :c5production:

    Gems 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; bank 2 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:
    to 1 :c5science: 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; bank 2 :c5science: 1 :c5production:; +10% :c5gold:

    Gold
    1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5gold:; bank 3 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    to 1 :c5culture: 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; bank 1 :c5culture: 3 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length

    Salt 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5food:; stoneworks 2 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food: growth
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; stoneworks 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; +10% :c5food: growth

    Silver
    1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5gold:; bank 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:
    to 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; bank 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:



    Construction
    Spoiler :

    Marble 2 :c5production:; 2 :c5production: and +15% wonder :c5production:; stoneworks 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5culture:
    to 2 :c5production:; 2 :c5production: and +15% wonder :c5production:; stoneworks 1 :c5science:; +10% :c5culture:

    Amber 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 6 :c5happy:
    to 1 :c5faith: 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5faith: 1 :c5production:; temple 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 6 :c5happy:

    Jade 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; stoneworks 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    to 1 :c5science: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5science: 1 :c5production:; stoneworks 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length

    Lapis 1 :c5culture:; 2 :c5production:; amphitheatre 2 :c5culture:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    to 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; amphitheatre 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length



    Trapping
    Spoiler :

    Fur 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 6 :c5happy:
    to 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 2 :c5production:; 6 :c5happy:

    Truffles 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 2 :c5gold:; 3 :c5food:
    to 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5food:; caravansaries 1 :c5food: 2 :c5gold:; 3 :c5food:

    Ivory 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; circus 3 :c5culture:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; circus 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length




    Let's get stuck in.

    G
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
    Tekamthi likes this.
  2. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Uh oh, the multiple layers of Spoiler tags sort of broke the quoted text. :sad:
     
  3. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    This is easier to read!
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Yes it is.
     
  5. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I'm going to need some time to do some maths on all this, but right off the bat I'm noticing pretty widespread changes to yield composition and numerical values, many of which that don't seem to make much rational sense. For example, why add so much production and remove so much gold from Fur and Truffles? Fur is a practical and stylish luxury that was well represented via gold and culture yields. Truffles are a valuable spice and thus it makes sense that they got extra food and gold yields.

    I agree that another pass on luxury yields is probably needed, but I'm pretty happy with the current "theming" of each luxury's yields. What I would like to do is just tweak the current yields, and I do not think that a complete re-balancing of all the luxuries is necessary. I think we can still point to some of the better and worse ones and make minor adjustments rather than re-do the whole lot. Anyway, I know this isn't that helpful without numerical suggestions, so I'll come back to the conversation after reviewing the yields in more detail. :goodjob:
     
    Infixo likes this.
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'm not saying that Deadstarre's proposal is also mine, just that it was the first one brought up. I'm neutral about it all right now.

    G
     
  7. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    i'm vegan, if I could have attached -3 unhappiness to the tile from animal rights protesters I would have =)
     
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  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I mostly like these, but disagree on Marble for example. Not enough time to really think on all of them. Some changes seem uneeded.

    As king I'll force vegans to eat hamburgers, unhappiness be damned!
     
    Enrico Swagolo likes this.
  9. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    Okay, here are my suggestions for some slight yield tweaks across the whole board. Mostly small yield buffs to weaker luxuries and a few yield swaps between unimproved/improved/building to smooth out yield increases over time. I tried to aim for 6 total yields per lux when fully upgraded, but with :c5culture: & :c5production: counting for a little more and :c5gold: counting for a little less. Notes regarding yield changes included where applicable. Also, luxs that spawn on harder to improve resources (jungles and marshes) got slight buffs to their improved yields to make up for not being able to connect these luxs until Classical/Medival eras.

    NOTE: I know that on certain map scripts sugar/cocoa/citrus can spawn on plains. Not sure what to do about different map scripts handling lux placement differently.

    Calendar
    Spoiler :

    Citrus 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; garden 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5science:
    to 1 :c5food:; 2 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; garden 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5science: (1 :c5food: to improvement due to later improvement availability (jungle spawn))

    Cocoa 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; garden 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5culture:
    to 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5food: 2 :c5gold:; garden 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5culture: (minus 1 :c5gold: to unimproved for yield parity; 1 :c5food: to improvement due to later improvement availability (jungle spawn))

    Cotton 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 2 :c5gold:; caravansaries 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; 3 :c5gold:
    to 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; 3 :c5gold: (1 :c5gold: to unimproved and minus 1:c5gold: to improvement to balance yield parity)

    Dye 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; amphitheatre 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 3 :c5gold:
    -No change suggested-

    Incense 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5faith:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5faith:
    -No change suggested-

    Silk 2 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; amphitheatre 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:
    -No change suggested-

    Spices 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; market 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; 2 :c5culture:
    to 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; market 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; 2 :c5culture: (1 :c5gold: to unimproved yields to bring on par with other plantation luxs)

    Sugar 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; market 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food:
    to 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 2 :c5gold:; market 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food: (1 :c5gold: to improved yields due to later improvement availability (sugar spawns on marshes))

    Wine 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5faith:
    -No change suggested-

    Coffee 1 :c5food:; 2 :c5gold:; grocer 2 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5production:
    -No change suggested-

    Tea 2 :c5production:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; grocer 2 :c5gold: 1 :c5production:; +10% :c5culture:
    to 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; grocer 2 :c5gold: 1 :c5production:; +10% :c5culture: (minus 1 :c5production: to unimproved to bring on par with other plantation luxs)

    Tobacco 2 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; grocer 3 :c5gold:; 2 :c5faith:
    -No change suggested-

    Olive 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; arena 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food:
    -No change suggested-

    Perfume 1 :c5culture:; 2 :c5gold:; arena 2 :c5culture:; 3 :c5gold:
    -No change suggested-



    Mining
    Spoiler :

    Copper 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5gold:; forge 2 :c5gold:; +10% :c5production:
    -No change suggested- (I recognize lower yields, but monopoly bonus makes up for this)

    Gems 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; bank 2 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:
    -No change suggested-

    Gold
    1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5gold:; bank 3 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    to 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5gold: 1 :c5culture:; bank 3 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length (moved :c5culture: to improvement; making Gems, Silver, and Gold on par when unimproved)

    Salt 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5food:; stoneworks 2 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food:
    to 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production:; stoneworks 2 :c5gold:; +10% :c5food: (added 1 :c5production: to improvement to bring on par with total yields of other quarry/mine resources)

    Silver
    1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5gold:; bank 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold:
    to 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; bank 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5gold: (add 1 :c5gold: to improvement to bring on par with Gems for total yields)



    Construction
    Spoiler :

    Marble 2 :c5production:; 2 :c5production: and +15% wonder :c5production:; stoneworks 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5culture:
    to 2 :c5production:; 1 :c5production: and +15% wonder :c5production:; stoneworks 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +10% :c5culture: (minus 1 :c5production: to improvement due to wonder production buff)

    Amber 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 6 :c5happy:
    to 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5gold:; temple 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5faith:; 6 :c5happy: (swapped :c5gold: for :c5faith: on building, but could be left unchanged)

    Jade 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5production:; stoneworks 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    -No change suggested-

    Lapis 1 :c5culture:; 2 :c5production:; amphitheatre 2 :c5culture:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    -No change suggested-



    Trapping
    Spoiler :

    Fur 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; 6 :c5happy:
    to 1 :c5culture:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 1 :c5culture: 1 :c5gold:; 6 :c5happy: (move production to improvement; add 1 :c5culture: with building)

    Truffles 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 2 :c5gold:; 3 :c5food:
    to 1 :c5gold:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; caravansaries 3 :c5gold:; 3 :c5food: (added 1 :c5gold: to building since :c5culture: > :c5gold:)

    Ivory 1 :c5production:; 1 :c5production: 1 :c5gold:; circus 3 :c5culture:; +25% :c5goldenage: length
    -No change suggested-

     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'm struggling to understand how the numbers work here. Let me break it down to ensure I am correct:

    Citrus 1 :c5food:; 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; garden 1 :c5food: 1 :c5gold:; 2 :c5science:

    So I read this as the following:

    Citrus - Provides 1 food innately. A plantation adds 1 food and gold. The garden adds 1 food, 1 gold. And the 2 science....um where does that come from?
     
  11. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    The last is monopoly bonus
     
  12. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    Keep in mind, inter-group balance matters too; mining luxuries, for example, are quite bad atm - they grant mostly gold and a bit of production, and 3/5 don't get their building improvement until the Renaissance. (On the other hand, the monopolies do scale better.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It should be easier. They were more or less balanced a while before.

    Forests and jungles got nerfed. Luxuries that go exclusively there should be buffed.
    Mines got nerfed a little too, so buff a bit those mineable luxuries.
    Quarries got buffed, so do the opposite.

    And then we'll need some field research.
     
  14. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    Didn't quarries *deservedly" get buffed - aka they had less total yields than other luxuries?
     
  15. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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  16. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Are Fishing Luxuries going to be considered as well?
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Oops.
     
  18. Legedi

    Legedi Chieftain

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    I haven't had time to play (new born), but I'm glad this is being addressed. I never really thought about them as a balance problem, but I definitely restarted starts because I saw the luxuries I had were not good, and didn't feel like play with some of the bad ones.
     
  19. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Well here you go. Added Building and Fishing Boat Yields.

    Fishing:

    Spoiler :

    Lighthouse: 1:c5food: ,1:c5gold:
    Harbor: 1:c5food:, 1:c5production: ( Sea Resource)
    Seaport: 1:c5production: , 1:c5gold: + ( 2:c5production: , 2:c5gold: ( Sea Resource))

    Fishing Boats: 1 :c5food: (Compass), 1:c5gold: (Navigation), 1:c5production:, 1:c5science: (Refrigeration)

    Coral 1 :c5gold:, 1 :c5culture: ;1:c5production: , 1 :c5faith:;

    Crab: 1:c5food: ,1:c5gold: ; 1 :c5food:, 1 :c5production:; 3 :c5food:

    Pearls: 2 :c5gold:; 1 :c5production:,1 :c5culture: ; 2 :c5faith:

    Whales: 1 :c5food:, 1 :c5science:; 1 :c5production:,1 :c5science:; +10% :c5science:



    It doesn't seem neccesary to mess with the Building Yields, but how knows the inner mechanisms of your ideals.
     
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Actually, I don't think fishing luxuries need a rebalance. They were not touched by the last change.
     

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