1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Looking at Luxuries (2-1 Version+)

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Gazebo, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,332
    Location:
    Beijing
    I think fish are fine overall. However I would support changing the second point of science on whales to a food. Whales are really good, potentially doubling your early game science quite easily.

    As for the suggestions, I really dislike having all those random points of faith and science thrown in. Those are rare and feel special as is
     
    Owlbebach likes this.
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,978
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    So far I haven’t really seen any changes that offer a substantial improvement. I’m looking for minor changes here, nothing overhauly. +1s to +1f on whales is more my speed.

    G
     
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,269
    Location:
    Venice, California
    When Carthage currently gets whales, look out.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  4. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,880
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Trapping Luxuries are outliers for me. The yields are just weak if there aren't any Forest/Jungle tiles over them. Even when they do, they are improved by buildings relatively late. Caravansaries are good but not often a priority, and Circuses come somewhat later.

    I think Furs/Ivory need something. Maybe add +1 :c5gold: to their camps so that they're more valuable. Furs is my bigger concern.

    I agree that Whales are too strong. Either the monopoly or the fishing boat should provide science, not both. If I get them on Carthage, I just restart the map.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,269
    Location:
    Venice, California
    If I have Trapping luxuries, I never improve them late, or even "relatively" late. I always research the tech in time for my first worker to get on it.
     
  6. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,880
    Location:
    Lebanon
    I'm sorry I meant improved by buildings.

    Although, honestly even the furs feels like a liability. Often times the +1 :c5gold: +1 :c5culture: isn't enough to clear the Poverty / Boredom but if I had +2 :c5gold: I would have at least not had the Poverty :c5unhappy:.

    Like it needs something. Maybe +1 :c5gold: on camp would be enough

    Alternatively, add a yield at a certain point like Pastures and Mathematics.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  7. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    960
    Location:
    New York
    is it possible for Fur to spawn not on a forest? I dont think so... perhaps youre thinking of forested tundra furs as a problem? they are a thing
     
  8. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,880
    Location:
    Lebanon
    I've had Furs on Grassland/Plains without Forest tiles for sure. Might be a map script thing? I use Communitas with normal settings.

    Tundra without Forest is more likely though and is where the problem really rears its head.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,332
    Location:
    Beijing
    Its tough to balance across map scripts. I think most scripts will not spawn furs (or deer) without forest when using VP.
     
  10. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,880
    Location:
    Lebanon
    That's true. Although I distinctly remember Deer/Furs spawning on non-Forest tiles sometimes, and Truffles does spawn in Marsh as well.

    Still, is it fine for Furs tiles to be abysmally weak til Workshops... or for the whole game if Tundra?
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,332
    Location:
    Beijing
    Its a really, really good tile when the game begins. 2 food, 1 hammer, 1 culture. Yes please.

    Its caravansary bonus could be better. Tundra is a separate thing, I find Tundra actually not that bad. The pantheon is amazing
     
    vyyt likes this.
  12. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,880
    Location:
    Lebanon
    How is it better than any luxury spawning in a Forest though? Dyes in Forest for example provides the same yields, and with a Herbalist even better yields.
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,332
    Location:
    Beijing
    Its easier to improve, happiness monopoly is way better than 10% gold in my opinion, and the pantheon options are pretty good. Dyes are a great luxury, furs aren't better but they aren't outright worse either.
     
  14. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,880
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Talking about tile yields though

    I think it's just a perfect storm of

    • +1 baseline yield and +1 improvement yield only
    • Caravanasary upgrade (not exactly a priority building)
    • Camp (late upgrades in tech tree)
    • Possible non-Forest/Jungle (even with Tundra pantheon any other luxury would be stronger)
    • Even if forest, late for an upgrade (workshop)
    • non-tile monopoly
    that makes Furs a bit of a hot mess :p
     
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,332
    Location:
    Beijing
    I'm talking about luxuries as a whole though
     
  16. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,880
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Alright but you can't really qualify the difference between happiness and % yields off-handedly. Easier to just understand that the monopolies are both non-tile and compare their baseline values.

    Eh *shrug*
     
  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,332
    Location:
    Beijing
    You can, and we have to use our judgment to evaluate these types of things, its the point of balance threads.

    From experience, I can say that 6 happiness is overall a better monopoly. Its clearly much better early on than 10% gold in all cities. Its +6% to all yields until your happiness gets really high. Furs is a good luxury, I'm always happy to play it. It is weak towards the mid-game but this has never bothered me.

    You can argue that the dye monopoly is better in certain situations, and it is, but they are less common that situations where 6 happiness will be better. Like sure, Dyes is better in the rare game that goes very late and I had no happiness issues, but that sounds like an easier game.
     
  18. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    390
    Like Sugar usually spawning on marshes (but not always), Fur and Truffles can certainly spawn on plains tiles without a forest (it's just rare). Currently, if you get a Fur luxury but not enough for a monopoly I feel it is one of the weakest luxuries in the game, even after the building boost from Caravanseries and Workshop. Which is why I suggested a small yield boost to it in my first post. (Which no one has commented on yet?)

    As for coastal luxuries, I didn't add them to my suggestions because I feel that after the last round of balancing all of them felt pretty good. I do not think the Science on Whales is OP either. Culture is a much more powerful early yield, and Culture is much more widely available from luxuries than Science. I didn't want to go wild with suggesting large yield shifts to luxuries, but I still feel a little Science should replace other yields for a few luxuries. Specifically, Copper & Gems would be great places to thematically add Science as part of the building yield boost (replace +2 :c5gold: for +1 :c5gold: +1 :c5science: for Copper on Forge, and replace :c5culture: yield for :c5science: on Banks for Gems).
     
  19. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    266
    Now that we are discussing furs spawning on non forest tiles, there is also the fact that the few times i started whit an incense monopoly, most of the incense spawned on pure desert tiles, making it impossible to work, even if I managed to get the spirit of the desert pantheon, working tiles whit 0 food is just impossible on the early game where luxury tiles are the strongest.
     
  20. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    390
    I think the tile placement for certain luxuries is a problem brought about by mapscripts having control over how all resources are distributed, not the VP mod. Incense can spawn on flat desert, but it doesn't always. So should VP boost the unimproved yields of Incense to account for desert spawns (but then have it be too good when it spawns on plains)? The same goes for plains-spawned Furs and marsh-spawned Sugar.

    My opinion is that these luxuries should be buffed a little to make worse-case tile spawns bearable, rather than leave them at the same yield output as luxuries that spawn on "decent" tiles. I tried to do this with my suggestion for Sugar in my early post, but I'm not so sure how G and others feel about taking worst-case tile placement into account.
     

Share This Page