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Looking at Luxuries (2-1 Version+)

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Gazebo, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. pza

    pza Prince

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    1. you forgot 8-12 :c5food: from caravan, city states, pantheons... the AI proved me you can have fairly well populated cities in low food locations.
    2. i've hardly ever had a reasonable position without floodplains or oasis or any sort of food tiles. that's very dependent on map script and map size. (biggest map i play is tectonic standard, because i dislike slower speeds and want domination victories to be possible.)
    3. of course you need to have insanely good reason to settle in said location. just imagine you had a crazy good strategic position, with an insane amount of strategic and luxury ressource hills that would be crucial to the monopolies. but no :c5food:. would you settle it? you would, and you would do everything to make the city thrive. but you don't always have such a crazy good location that you chose to settle. the reason is, :c5food: in such areas, like in real life, has such a high value that you need to have a huge payoff to profit from settling it. it's a trade off. you're paying a caravan slot, :c5production:, :c5gold: and maintenance for buildings just to make up for the fact that there's low food in the area. but it CAN be worth it. and if so, every :c5food: yield in the city is insanely valueable, translating in a huge value factor for :c5food: in the TileValue formula that i mentioned earlier. the factor drops as the city has more and more food income, to the point where, if you had a city with only, exclusivly food tiles, the value factor of :c5food: would become 0 or close to. reality is somewhere in between.


    also, i'm not saying i'm opposed to buffing flat deserts (i'm neutral), but i'd rather see tundra buffed. it's a much more common starting location and consistently bad (not even features make up for it), especially if you don't get the pantheon, as opposed to deserts which have 2 pantheons, flood plains and oasises, petra and their hills don't suck. and they're not close to snow.
     
  2. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I'm really not seeing the problem with tundra. It's worse than plains/grassland, obviously, but, like flat desert, it makes up a very small portion of the total tiles on a standard map. The only thing you can't do with tundra is build farms on it without a source of fresh water (just like flat desert), but it at least comes with 1 :c5food:. Having said that, I'm not sure just giving all flat desert tiles a yield of some sort (whether it be :c5food:, :c5gold:, :c5production:, or whatever) is such a good idea. I mean, why would a flat desert naturally be worth anything from a resource standpoint unless it had strategic/luxury resources in/under it or a nearby city had the infrastructure to do something useful with it?

    Since it would help with balancing out luxury yields, I still agree that it could make sense to have a building buff desert tiles worked by a city, so that way the extra yields at least come from somewhere that makes more sense. The Caravansary still makes the most sense to me for this purpose, at it comes pretty early in the tech-tree and it already serves a number of niche uses that may or may not make it worth building depending on the location and purpose of the city. Other options could be the Forge (smelt that sand into glass and sell it!), Garden (since it already buffs oasis), Train Station (to further balance its yields versus Seaport), or Stoneworks (turn that sand into sandstone!). As for what the yield should be, :c5gold: is still my top pick (Petra isn't OP, so another source of :c5gold: to desert tiles should not be either), but I suppose it could also be :c5production:.
     
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Agreed, there is no problem with tundra. I think the odds of a civ being crippled on a standard map because somebody else took the tundra pantheon is very low.

    And I also agree that buffing the desert would in most cases make it "not desert" anymore. Bad starts are part of the game, and I like the RL feeling it gives to games. For me, it's part of Civ's immersive aspect. Of course there's a limit to this, as it's a game meant to be fun. But if the limit had been crossed, I think there would have been a louder outcry about desert tiles long before now. Buildings that offer slight desert buffs also strike me as a reasonable compromise, if one is needed.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  4. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    The reason why people started looking at buffing flat desert base yield is that it is the only way (with pantheons) to buff flat desert without buffing other desert (hill, ...)
    Desert start does not need a buff, so buffing hill / flood plains would make it too good.
    However, for ressource balance, we want to buff flat desert.
    There is 3 solutions:
    + Buff base yields of flat desert
    + Make a dummy pantheon effect buffing flat deserts at some point => bad idea, it will leads to bugs / ...
    + Add new code to differenciate flat desert from non-flat desert => No new code when not needed, so no.
     
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  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    The problem here is that buffing with a building buffs ALL desert spaces, including hills. This would make desert hills BETTER than non-desert hills, which is dumb.

    Adding +1:c5food: or :c5production: on flat deserts would avoid any craziness.

    The best solution would be new code that increases yields on improved resources on flat desert tiles, but that doesn't seem in the cards.

    I don't think people are suddenly going to start working flat desert tiles, but I DO think they're going to see a bit more benefit to working incense or iron on a flat desert. (Which they should.)
     
  6. pza

    pza Prince

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    what about a new tile improvement for flat tundra and desert? +:c5faith:? that's basically what you need if you want to survive in such harsh conditions. faith in god :D
     
  7. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

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    There is no problem whit flat desert, tundra or snow, its okay for the game to have unworkable tiles, the problem is whit how often both bonus and luxury resources are wasted wen they spawn on these unworkable tiles, a huge disadvantage for the civ who happened to spawn near said resources, hows arabia,for example of a civ whit desert bias, whose half the incense in its territory, 2 stones, a marble and 2 iron that spawned on flat desert can compete against a civ on the other side of the continent that got almost the same resources, aside from the incense, but on plains and thus got 2 more yields for the duration of the game from each worked tile.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    To fix that, you are going to have to change all the map scripts, which is not going to happen.

    Adding a building...too much work for G.

    If you really want to fix it, i say +1 hammer on flat desert. Easy to adjust, real life enough (not perfect but ok), and wouldn’t suddenly make deserts op or anything
     
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  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    That's a new feature. So no. G word.

    This is not considering the last change to food and spirit of the desert. Spirit of the desert was nerfed first. Then food was cutted, and specialist consumption increased. Now deserts are much worse than normal starts, even with the pantheon. Have to see yet myself a desert start with current release, but it looks like it's not going to go well.

    Flat deserts giving +1 production is still worse than plains. But if you must, make it +1 gold. I still think +1 faith makes more sense, but gold could do.
     
  10. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    But wouldn't gold make Petra less appealing? Thing is, once you have a tile with 1 gold, that tile is going to benefit more from Golden Ages. And 1 more gold... yeah, it'll be good, but not that good. Ok, Petra also affects hills. But still... It'd seem like a nerf. A nerf I think it doesn't need.
     
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  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Best I'm gonna do on this (for the sake of minimal code) is a simple define that adds +1p to a tile if it has a resource and an improvement AND it is flat + no-freshwater desert. I loathe hard-coding stuff, but the DLL is getting tight on workable memory.

    G
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Aside from the desert discussion, I don't see much else here of note. Any takeaways for the next version?

    G
     
  13. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    This would be a perfect solution, thanks.
    Mine resources have been over-nerfed. I didn't see any disagreement there.
     
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  14. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I posted some feedback about plantation/mine/quarry/camp yield balancing in an earlier post, but didn't see any response comments. Mostly it was just pointing out a few luxuries that have noticeably better/worse yields when unimproved than their brethren. Your take?

    As for ocean resources, I think they're currently pretty well balanced.
     
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  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I saw your post, but I didn't see any follow-up. Is that due to agreement?


    Right now my takeaway is:

    • Mines need an extra yield in Classical/Medieval - perhaps on the forge instead of on-tiles? Is there a weaker lower-level tech that I could add a mine yield to make it more enticing?
    • Whales, I thought, needed a new yield aside from science (as the early science was too much). An extra food, perhaps.
    • Fish suck for too long- perhaps an extra food on the resource itself?
    That's about the bulk of it. Buffing mines a bit across the board, bringing Whales/Fish back towards the center. Any other surgical strikes?

    G
     
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  16. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I like all your proposed changes. The only alternative to the forge that seems sensible is the quarry, but I don't see why that would be better.
     
  17. kawyua

    kawyua Warlord

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    I wish there was more early production available on coastal resources... so hard as a normal civ unless you find a way to get a pantheon for those fishes or whatever, but that's situational. I don't like all that food >.< sometimes its a trap

    I would love to see more early production on mines...

    idk
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Quarry? Me confus.

    G
     
  19. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Stone works, sorry. And I still prefer the forge.
     
  20. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    If you're looking for a new place to add +1 :c5production: to mines, how about Engineering or Metal Casting? Iron Working might also work, but wouldn't it be odd to have the +1 base there and then the Forge's +1 all in the same tech?

    As a summary from my more detailed post: Truffles, Silver, Furs, Cotton, Sugar, and Salt could use some love. Tea and Marble are perhaps too strong.
     
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