Looking for advice for Prince+ (BtS)

[xilr]

Hello Folks.

I've been a Civ4 player a good long time, but Im not very good at it.

I can defeat the AI on the difficulty level under prince (I believe its Noble?). Typically I win by a long shot, usually fighting the CPUs longbowmen/musketeers against my infantry. The victory doesnt feel earned.

Once I up it to prince, I get slaughtered. The failure feels just as cheap given that something Im doing forbids me from defeating the tactics they use... If anyone has advice for me or thinks there is a particular article that deals with one of my problems I list, please point me in the right direction!


Problem 1: Diplomacy: Just keep askin' until you hate me!

I'm familiar with basic triangle diplomacy, but in most of my games I end up on peoples craplist fast. Its not long before two civs go to war and BOTH start asking favors. Typically they'll just keep right on asking me, getting more and more mad as I decline to enter a war I cant afford. Stop trading, Help me in war, blah blah blah. I say no, and a few turns later they just ask again. What hilarious is later in the game they'll end up friends and together declare war on me. The CPU will ask me to participate in wars that would SURELY be suicide, and I cant get them to stop asking... Advice?

Problem 2: Diplomacy: Do as I say, not as I do.

A CPU who Im trying to impress just loves me. He askes me to help him in war, I say "Sure thing buddy!". Next thing I know, someone else decides to declare war on me. I go to my "friend" CPU and ask for help. Even if he doesnt like the person at war with me, typically his answer is "I've got too much going on right now" and he wont enter war to help me. He asks me for help and I have to comply or I lose standing, I ask him for help and I nearly always get refused. Basically I end up a puppet for the empire Im trying to help, then he watches me get wiped out later....Advice?

Problem 3: Military: Scorched earth, its not just an 80s game!

I used to just place military units in cities. But on harder difficulty levels the CPU tends to bee-line my resources that let me build troops stronger than warriors. Makes sense, so I started sprinkling military units in fortified positions over top of iron/copper mines and other military resources. Well, the CPU just brings in a big enough stack to destroy whatever I put there. If I place 4 troops on each iron/copper mine, its already very expensive, and he'll just bring 8-10 troops to wipe it out. The same thing with cities actually. If my city is well enough defended, he'll just move his stack of doom through my empire sticking to hills and forests where they are available pillaging everything along the way. I build LOTS of roads, so mobility isnt a huge problem, but how do other people stop the CPU from just bringing a massive stack in and pillaging everything in your empire?

Problem 4: Victory: Whadda mean Cultural/space race victory?!

A friend of mine asked me if there was a way to play Civ4 peacefully. I told him I had read about people doing it, but I had no idea how to do it. Basically on Noble I mount an aggressive military campaign that always ends in a Domination victory just before or just after the first air units become available. Basically if I ever let up on my aggression I get out teched and their in space. If this game can be won peacefully, its outside of my current skill.... Any advice?

 

[PericlesOfAthen]

I think you're most serious problem is diplomacy. As you've noticed when two AI's start fighting they automatically want you to take sides. If you don't you are in trouble with both. My solution? Pick a side. Then at least only one is angry. Usually I think ahead to which AI I'll prefer to have as a friend long term preferably one that I can trade techs with. If I'm planning on domination maybe I'll side with the guy attacking my neighbor or if my neighbor is contained and not a long-term threat and shares my religion, I'll stick by him or her.

How do you respond when an AI asks for a tech? Do you usually refuse? I used to resent an AI asking for a tech but actually it is one of the best ways to get on an AI's good side and so now I almost always give the tech. I don't know if you know this but one of the major factors in determining whether an AI declares war is your diplomatic relationship with him. If an AI is even just pleased with you he is a LOT less likely to declare war on you. Also an AI will tend to declare war on you if your power is less than his so you should regularly check the power graph <F9> to see where you stand. If your graph gets too low then it doesn't matter how good your relationship with the AI is he or she will attack, especially in BTS.

I hope this helps.

 

[xilr]

Hmm good point, I should have mentioned the rules.

I disabled tech trading and tech brokering in every game I've played. I found that if I didnt do it, the CPU would pass around techs and it seemed to make the game much harder for me. Im not sure if CPUs give other CPUs very good deals on tech or what, but if I disable tech trading I can compete technologically. If I allow it, I tend to fall far behind.

I also play Hannibal of Carthage, usually. Im fond of financial and charismatic seems to keep things under control for me longer.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

General thoughts:

At prince level, diplomacy problems are symptoms of a more fundamental concerns.

Try a game where your second city may only construct a barracks and a monument and train military units.


I don't suggest this as a strategy, it has some obvious flaws. But even after playing this game for almost two years I'm stunned by the effect that a single unit source can have on the early and middle game.

When you are the top of the power graph, you have the luxury of playing any kind of game you want.

 

[Cam_H]

Firstly, VoU makes a good suggestion.

I disabled tech trading and tech brokering in every game I've played. I found that if I didnt do it, the CPU would pass around techs and it seemed to make the game much harder for me.

Look at tech' trading as an opportunity - not a threat. Technology trading will improve you relations with many tribes, while give your empire improved momentum - especially if you can start strongly. Being able to leverage one-for-three type trade deals, or one-for-two-plus-gold, etc. could end up making your position far better than with technology trading turned off. Food for thought anyway.

 

[Crenor]

Usually tech trading gives the player an advantage, because once you get alphabet you can trade aggressively until you out-tech most AIs. From that point on you can get more wonders, better units, better buildings, and so on. AIs are slower to get Alphabet, so you get a big boost by going for it early, assuming that you have trading partners.

Another suggestion I would make is to found an early religion, which is easily doable as any civ, although some are easier than others. If you can't get Hinduism or Judaism (don't go for Buddhism), then build the Oracle and grab Confucianism or Christianity. Then spread your religion aggressively to your neighbors. That way, you won't have many nearby enemies, and your neighbors are less likely to declare war on each other and force you to choose a side. IF you do have a neighbor that founded their own religion, you can build the AP and then vote for a holy war on them, OR if they have your religion in one of their cities, you can vote to stop the war if they come after you with their stacks of doom.

I use this strategy on Prince and find that I can get space race or cultural victories easy, no matter what civ i play.

 

[I EAT CRAYONS]

Problem 3: Military: Scorched earth, its not just an 80s game!

I used to just place military units in cities. But on harder difficulty levels the CPU tends to bee-line my resources that let me build troops stronger than warriors. Makes sense, so I started sprinkling military units in fortified positions over top of iron/copper mines and other military resources. Well, the CPU just brings in a big enough stack to destroy whatever I put there. If I place 4 troops on each iron/copper mine, its already very expensive, and he'll just bring 8-10 troops to wipe it out. The same thing with cities actually. If my city is well enough defended, he'll just move his stack of doom through my empire sticking to hills and forests where they are available pillaging everything along the way. I build LOTS of roads, so mobility isnt a huge problem, but how do other people stop the CPU from just bringing a massive stack in and pillaging everything in your empire?

First, you don't need 4 units on EVERY iron/copper mine. You only need one source of each to build units.
Second, siege units also have defensive uses. Use collateral damage to rip the SoD's apart. Of course, it's a bit less effective in BtS, but it still works.

 

[House Atreides]

i think religion is key here. if you can found a religion early on and spread it to your neighbors, you have a much better chance of improved diplo relations (as long as you're all the same religion). I usually go for the Oracle/COL slingshot early in the game and found confucianism as a result, however, i don't always convert. this depends on the strength and existing religions of my neighbors. you can still benefit from shrine income without the actually converting to the religion. additionally, as many have mentioned above, you should still keep a strong military presence througout the game, if the AI smells weakness, it will attack, even if you're on thier "good" side.

as far as tech trading is concerned, i was under the impressions that BtS has improved the way techs are traded. i think one can no longer trade techs they did not discover (including the AI). While your tech concerns were valid in vanilla and warlords (had the same problem with getting really behind the AI), in BtS, this really hasn't been a problem. you may be limiting yourself by not allowing tech trading, as it will be hard to keep up with the AI without trading to some degree.

 

[sterben]

I'm not an expert by any means; I've just recently started to be able to win on prince consistently.

One of the big things I found that helped me jump from noble to prince, though, was religion. Not so much -founding- a religion, per se (though I'm not displeased if it happens), but in terms of declaring a state religion.

If I found a religion, or if one is spread to me, I usually wait a bit before declaring it as the state religion, even more so if I don't have Monotheism yet for organized religion. I will watch and see which civs are which religion, and then convert accordingly to the one that will give me the best advantage diplomatically. If I have a civ on both sides of me, I will usually convert to the religion of the stronger (or protective) and then I can focus on killing the heathens on my other side with less fear of backstabbing. If two civs are going to war and are different religions, I can convert to the religion that the majority of civs share and then give aid to civ that shares it.

Founding a religion early and spreading it around is a strategy, but at least when I try this I end up usually converting one civ and then having everyone else hate us, and also falling behind in tech/power because of the hammers used on the missionaries. Of course, I could be doing it wrong, but it seems easier to let the AI spend the hammers spreading it and then just converting and/or taking their holy city later

 

[Bast]

I'm not an expert by any means; I've just recently started to be able to win on prince consistently.

One of the big things I found that helped me jump from noble to prince, though, was religion. Not so much -founding- a religion, per se (though I'm not displeased if it happens), but in terms of declaring a state religion.

If I found a religion, or if one is spread to me, I usually wait a bit before declaring it as the state religion, even more so if I don't have Monotheism yet for organized religion. I will watch and see which civs are which religion, and then convert accordingly to the one that will give me the best advantage diplomatically. If I have a civ on both sides of me, I will usually convert to the religion of the stronger (or protective) and then I can focus on killing the heathens on my other side with less fear of backstabbing. If two civs are going to war and are different religions, I can convert to the religion that the majority of civs share and then give aid to civ that shares it.

Founding a religion early and spreading it around is a strategy, but at least when I try this I end up usually converting one civ and then having everyone else hate us, and also falling behind in tech/power because of the hammers used on the missionaries. Of course, I could be doing it wrong, but it seems easier to let the AI spend the hammers spreading it and then just converting and/or taking their holy city later

This I learnt on Noble. Just starting to move into Prince too. I don't go for religions but that may also have to do with my favourite leaders being Victoria and Pericles. I always find it's better to let religions spread to you and then you can pick who you want to be friends with etc... That way you don't waste hammers as well building missionaries trying to spread your religion. Let AI like Isabella do that. And when you have a big enough army you take their holy city.

 

[madscientist]

Hello Folks.

I've been a Civ4 player a good long time, but Im not very good at it.

I can defeat the AI on the difficulty level under prince (I believe its Noble?). Typically I win by a long shot, usually fighting the CPUs longbowmen/musketeers against my infantry. The victory doesnt feel earned.

Once I up it to prince, I get slaughtered. The failure feels just as cheap given that something Im doing forbids me from defeating the tactics they use... If anyone has advice for me or thinks there is a particular article that deals with one of my problems I list, please point me in the right direction!

I will assume you are playing BTS

Problem 1: Diplomacy: Just keep askin' until you hate me!

I'm familiar with basic triangle diplomacy, but in most of my games I end up on peoples craplist fast. Its not long before two civs go to war and BOTH start asking favors. Typically they'll just keep right on asking me, getting more and more mad as I decline to enter a war I cant afford. Stop trading, Help me in war, blah blah blah. I say no, and a few turns later they just ask again. What hilarious is later in the game they'll end up friends and together declare war on me. The CPU will ask me to participate in wars that would SURELY be suicide, and I cant get them to stop asking... Advice?

Pick one side. My latest Monarch win I used Shaka as an attack dog. Game him whatever he wanted and traded him techs to go to war with whom I wanted. He seamed happy and I won the game.

You cannot really stay neutral and stay out of war. Pick the one that will help you more (the trading partner, stronegr military, etc...) and help them even if it means going to war.

Problem 2: Diplomacy: Do as I say, not as I do.

A CPU who Im trying to impress just loves me. He askes me to help him in war, I say "Sure thing buddy!". Next thing I know, someone else decides to declare war on me. I go to my "friend" CPU and ask for help. Even if he doesnt like the person at war with me, typically his answer is "I've got too much going on right now" and he wont enter war to help me. He asks me for help and I have to comply or I lose standing, I ask him for help and I nearly always get refused. Basically I end up a puppet for the empire Im trying to help, then he watches me get wiped out later....Advice?

No AI will go to war for you while at war with someone else. Understand the AI you declare war on the help your new friend will likely bride another AI to declare war on you. Nobody said the game would be easy.

Use religion and favorite civics to be friends. Isabella will hate you no matter what if you are a different religion (or none for that matter), while someone like Brennus may still be pleased if you run organized religion while having a different religion.

Also some AIs are notorious for asking you to help them in a war one turn before they declare peace.

Problem 3: Military: Scorched earth, its not just an 80s game!

I used to just place military units in cities. But on harder difficulty levels the CPU tends to bee-line my resources that let me build troops stronger than warriors. Makes sense, so I started sprinkling military units in fortified positions over top of iron/copper mines and other military resources. Well, the CPU just brings in a big enough stack to destroy whatever I put there. If I place 4 troops on each iron/copper mine, its already very expensive, and he'll just bring 8-10 troops to wipe it out. The same thing with cities actually. If my city is well enough defended, he'll just move his stack of doom through my empire sticking to hills and forests where they are available pillaging everything along the way. I build LOTS of roads, so mobility isnt a huge problem, but how do other people stop the CPU from just bringing a massive stack in and pillaging everything in your empire?

Your likely playing a defensive game. Send a larger stack of units into the AIs territory. Take the fight to them rather than trying to hold your resources.

Problem 4: Victory: Whadda mean Cultural/space race victory?!

A friend of mine asked me if there was a way to play Civ4 peacefully. I told him I had read about people doing it, but I had no idea how to do it. Basically on Noble I mount an aggressive military campaign that always ends in a Domination victory just before or just after the first air units become available. Basically if I ever let up on my aggression I get out teched and their in space. If this game can be won peacefully, its outside of my current skill.... Any advice?

I play marathon speed, huge maps and most of my wins are space/cultural/diplomatic with an occasional domination (some leader just nothing else will do, Ghengis is one).

For space you need a good solid economy, and a military force that is enough to hold the AIs at bay. There are many good article on Cottage economies (CE) and specialist economies (SE), read them and then use a hybrid. Do not stay constantly at war. Let the army do what it has to, then sue for peace and build up.

Cultural requires an early effort to build culture in three cities, through buildings as well as running artist specialists, generating great artists, and RELIGION RELIGION RELIGION. Even in BTS with the new corps, religion and those cathedrals (50% culture) are key to good cultual victories. You cna still war monger, just have all the other cities focus on the war machine.

Overall you need some friends in this game, for war diplomacy but also as trading partners. You get ALOT of commerce from foreign trade routes, and get a big return on trading techs.

 

[Silence101]

I'm a Prince player myself... I usually don't have a problem winning on Prince, so maybe I can share what works for me.

Problem 1: Diplomacy: Just keep askin' until you hate me!

I do feel your pain here. Diplomacy is not one of my strong points... I typically play a militarily offensive game anyway. When two Civ's go to war, I'll usually plan on picking sides knowing that I'll probably end up killing them both at some point anyway. You really should keep sufficient military strength on hand for a war at any time, so that you can always "afford" it.

Problem 2: Diplomacy: Do as I say, not as I do.

You may want to consider playing with tech trading on, and tech brokering off. That will still allow tech trading, but you won't have to worry about techs that you trade making their way to every other Civ in the game. Alphabet is excellent for backfilling techs that you didn't pick up initially. I usually try to keep as good a relations with the AI by giving them what they want most of the time, but at times they do make unreasonable demands which I can't go along with.

Problem 3: Military: Scorched earth, its not just an 80s game!

Military speaks volumes w/ regards to diplomacy - you'll be suprised what you can get away with if you're the big kid on the block. I'll often bully Civ's that I don't like for techs and such. In a typical game, I'll usually build commerce and production cities at about a 1:1 ratio, with my capital and maybe my second city becoming hybrids to one degree. (I don't know how this works at more advanced levels, but it works well on Prince.) My production cities build production oriented infrastructure - barracks, granery, forge, etc.., and I'll put a courthouse there too, and that's it. Other than that, they do full time military production. I like to have at least one city somewhere building military at all times. I don't build wonders in production cities - usually just in one of my first two cities. Militarily, I'm usually right at the top and I don't have a problem fighting wars on several fronts... which does happen often. (Again... I may need to work on diplomacy a bit myself.)

Usually when the AI declares war, they'll bring a sufficient amount of units to take whatever city it's going for. If you have a good network of roads set up between cities, bringing reinforcements from a neighboring city can really frusterate their plans. It's good to keep fairly strong unit garrisons in neighboring cities for that reason - The AI doesn't plan well for this. Always make sure that your military is vast and cutting edge.

Problem 4: Victory: Whadda mean Cultural/space race victory?!

I find that the space race vitory is one of the easier victories personally. I'm somewhat of a warmonger myself, but after taking out most of the other Civ's on my continent, it's not too tough to out produce the remaining Civ's and go for a space race victory or a conquest victory... probably my two most common. (I've been playing Hemisphere's [2 continents] / standard size map / epic / 16 - 18 Civs lately)

 

[Spiceweasel]

What is your economy like? Is your science slider nice and high? (Or, do you have suitable specialist replacements?)

I'm just starting to be comfortable at Prince myself. The biggest problem I've had is dealing with the massive jump in maintenance costs. Have you got courthouses and such? Specialized commerce cities?

Also, since you like to conquer a lot - do you keep enemy cities, or aim for capitulation? Enemy cities can take a lot time to make profitable.

 

[Silence101]

What is your economy like? Is your science slider nice and high? (Or, do you have suitable specialist replacements?)

I'm just starting to be comfortable at Prince myself. The biggest problem I've had is dealing with the massive jump in maintenance costs. Have you got courthouses and such? Specialized commerce cities?

Also, since you like to conquer a lot - do you keep enemy cities, or aim for capitulation? Enemy cities can take a lot time to make profitable.

I usually try to settle five or six cities myself, which means REXing when you're on a standard map with 17 other Civs. Founding a religion always helps... I usually go for the Oracle. Still though, it's easy to run a defecit - with writing, I usually run a quasi-specialist hybrid economy (or maybe I'm just trying to sound smart) - I'll usually run a few scientists in a couple of my commerce cities to help w/ research, but I taper that off with the construction of the GL and as my economy gets on it's feet. Courthouses are a must for all cities, in my oppinion (whether commerce or production).

I normally don't like capitulation... sounds odd, I know, but I like having control over all my cities. Usually by the time another Civ is ready for that, I figure I might as well annihilate them anyway. I try take over other Civ's cities, but I'll often raze boarder cities because I don't usually play Creative and I don't like dealing with cultural land issues. (I'll also raze poor placed cities and re-settle the area.)

By the time currency comes around, I can usually maintain around a 70% tech rate and still make some cash - it's nice to have cash on hand, especially in BTS... plus, I like upgrading units as much as possible. (I think there's arguements for and against it, but a lot of old units have valuable experience that I don't want to lose.) I'm usually pretty well even on my tech rate with the most advanced AI. (In fact, I like beelining techs so that I can later trade them and back-fill techs I miss... I think the AI usually takes a more balanced approach to tech.)

As I side note - I find that early warring is the most difficult because of a lack of seige weapons and limited production. Later in the game when you have more production power, you can build massive armies quite rapidly and expand a lot more quickly.