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Looking for Help

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by WeirdoJoker, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. WeirdoJoker

    WeirdoJoker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Messages:
    74
    Location:
    Hillsdale, Portland, Oregon
    I'm playing my first game at Warlord. Zulu versus Persia, Greece, Egypt, France and Babylon (now retired thanks to me). Going for Conquest or Domination, which seems to have been a bad idea. I've never been able to build up any case, and I'm so far behind scientifically (just recently got Riflemen while a couple of the others are up to Infantry already) that I don't think I can dominate, must less conquer. I'm in second place score-wise, but so far behind Persia I'm ready to quit and try another one. (Oh, and unlike Chieftain, I can't go below 0 gold without losing an improvement at the AI's choice.) Any tips for playing Warlord versus Chieftain?
     
  2. tjs282

    tjs282 Compressed Airhead

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,044
    Location:
    Under the waves, before love rescued me
    At Warlord, the AI-Civs are still majorly handicapped relative to the human player, which means their individual research pace should still be (much) slower than yours (except on Pangaeas, where they can tech-trade more easily amongst themselves), and their unit stacks (much) smaller.

    So if you're struggling at this level as well, then the advice is the same as we gave you for Chieftain ;) Build mostly attack-units (and fewer -- if any -- defensive units), build only necessary improvements (Wonders are not necessary! ;) ), and don't trade away your tech-advantages if you can avoid it. Also, research up to Republic and switch govs ASAP: although you can't use the Philosophy-slingshot in Vanilla, that just means your gov-change comes a maximum of 40T later than it would in an equivalent C3Conquests game -- i.e. maybe 120-140T in, rather than 80-100T.

    You can still Conquer the world as a Republic: to counter the increased unhappiness (no military police), you just need to use the LUX%-slider, and acquire Luxes (Settle them if you can, buy them if you have to, otherwise just conquer them). To avoid getting crippled by War-weariness, try to keep your wars short but decisive (and ideally, started by the other guy!). Build your stack, pick your target, and once Colonel F3 rates you AVERAGE to STRONG against that target, go and take (all) his stuff :hammer:
     
  3. WeirdoJoker

    WeirdoJoker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Messages:
    74
    Location:
    Hillsdale, Portland, Oregon
    I think it's because of my lack of gold that their research paces are all faster than mine. At first, it wasn't a big deal, but it's gotten to the point where I'd be pitting Riflemen against Infantry.

    That's pretty much what I've been doing so far. Now I'm up to building Galleons to bring troops over to another continent (there are three, and I've conquered the one I started on).

    This hasn't been too difficult, for the most part, though I can't use the slider because I've had to throw my limited gold into research.

    Colonel F3 (interesting title) rates me as strong against Greece, France (which I believe) and Egypt, and average against Persia. Does this account for the fact that I'm technologically behind?

    upload_2017-8-22_16-55-35.png
     
  4. tjs282

    tjs282 Compressed Airhead

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,044
    Location:
    Under the waves, before love rescued me
    But... Rifles are defenders?!? They're for holding your cities, not attacking others -- you want Cavs for that (if you have Horses), otherwise you should beeline to RepParts (Infantry, Arty, fast Workers, oh my!) as soon as you go Industrial. Infs have the same attack-value as Cavs, but they can hold what they capture. Of course, they advance a lot slower, but an Inf+Arty stack is pretty much unassailable, especially if you keep it on defensive-bonus terrain. Once you reach a town, Arty-bomb it first to destroy the improvements (especially the Barracks), reduce the population (below Pop6, the town has no inherent defensive-bonus), and redline the defenders, then send in your Infs to mop up.

    Also, assuming that you researched Nationalism yourself, that would have slowed down your advance to RepParts by however many turns it took you to get Nat (which is an optional tech, so you didn't really need it). And if you've been 'wasting' your beakers on other non-optional techs, it's not surprising that you've fallen behind. Beelining to the techs you need, for the Victory you want, is the way to go -- trade for the rest (if you can). (Not to say you've been slack on research, if you've got as far as researching Electricity in 1150 AD, but you could have got there even sooner than that).
    I can see one Galleon-build in progress in your screenshot, and even though you have multiple units (dozens?) in each of your towns, you're still building yet more Rifles...?!? You don't get any free units under Vanilla Republic, so your military must be costing you a couple of limbs...? If so, it's no wonder you're short of gold! Upgrades are the way to go: in Vanilla, it costs only 40g to turn a Musket into a Rifle, and then only another 20g to turn a Rifle into an Infantry later (assuming you have Rubber -- but you should, with all that Jungle!) -- and half that if you have Leos (although I'm guessing you don't?).

    So if I were you, I'd switch all those coastal-town builds to Galleons. Once they're ready to sail (if not sooner), to save on unit-maintenance, disband any units that you're not planning to send overseas, and that you don't actually need to defend your homeland -- especially obsolete units. Make sure to disband those units only in towns building useful improvements: this will give you back 1/4 of the shield-cost, into the town's current build.

    Load most/all of your Rifles aboard ship, and any Cannons you have, fill any still-vacant berths with your best remaining attackers, and keep 1-2 Muskets and 2-3 attackers per coastal homeland town, to fight off Persian-incursions. The rationale here is that your expeditionary forces cannot be easily upgraded/replaced after they've made landfall on foreign territory, especially before they have a town(s) to shelter in, so they should be as strong as possible. Conversely, the weaker units you've left at home can be upgraded piecemeal, or replaced later, much more quickly/ easily/ cheaply.
    No, relative military strength is calculated primarily from your military units' total attack-power (*1.5), plus total current defence (including bonuses), plus very minor adjustments for other unit-stats (e.g. bombardment), vs. the same calculation for the selected opponent. This actually has the interesting effect that, if you build large numbers of defenders and bombardiers rather than attackers, you may actually be perceived as WEAK by the AI-Civs, even though you can still easily wipe out anything they can throw at you (e.g. by using bombardment to redline the enemy unit, then sending in a 'defender' for the kill).

    If you're already strong against all 3 minor powers in your current game, I would suggest you concentrate on taking them down (starting with whoever has Horses), before the Persians do...
    Ouch. While your own gameplay has not helped, I have to say, that's not a great starting location: Plains and Desert at your end, heavy Jungle in the middle, and the only freshwater source in Babylon... blurrrgh!

    Getting your towns to Pop12 as early as possible in the game, nearly always pays off later -- but for a city to reach and remain at Pop12, it needs to harvest at least 24 food per turn (FPT), so all your Plains- and Desert-towns without any freshwater have been held back from growing for most of the game. This has crippled your growth and expansion, which is another reason why you have so little gold/income. Especially considering how dry your territory is, you've also founded your towns far too 'loose' -- packing in more towns (which you could have disbanded later, once you got the irrigation going) between your current towns, would have given you more production and more income, earlier in the game.
    Spoiler City-placement pros and cons :
    As far as city-placement goes, I generally follow the rule of thumb advocated by the better players here on CFC, that my towns should initially be separated by approximately 2-3 tiles, i.e. 'tight' placement, Cx(x)xC -- or distance 4(.5) from one another. This allows me to move my foot-troops along my roads between neighbouring towns within a single turn, and also usually ensures that each of those towns will still (eventually) be able to work roughly 11-13 tiles (assuming I can grow the town that large). If I can get an average 2 food per tile per turn per town (and remember, the town-tile itself provides 2 FPT), i.e. ≥24 FPT, I can support each town at Pop12, a long time prior to my obtaining Sanitation/Hospitals (which don't become accessible until relatively late in the game, turnwise -- and just to add insult to injury, requires investment in an(other) optional tech).

    However, with a start as dry as that, it might actually have been worth considering Infinite City Sprawl (ICS; towns at distance 2-3, Cx[x]C) instead, to maximise the 'free' food from the city tile. No town would have got bigger than Pop3-4 (maybe Pop5 with food-bonuses), so you wouldn't have needed to bother with any 'Ducts, Happiness- or Culture-buildings, and possibly not even Barracks: you could have just spammed out reg-units from every town, and overrun the Babs using superior numbers. You wouldn't even have needed to do much AA-research -- WarCode and Bronze might well have been enough to own your continent.
    You're researching Electricity now, which will allow you to Irrigate those dry towns, but using your Impis (and Archers) to pillage and conquer Babylon earlier in the game -- like, in the Ancient Age -- and then running an irrigation canal from their river to your towns, would have helped you much sooner. Moving your Palace to a more northerly/central position might also have helped you to get the best out of the fertile land, by de-corrupting the Babs' cities -- if you'd done it about 150T back.

    Don't get me wrong, your game is certainly still winnable, but with Persia already halfway(?) through the Industrial, and no fast units on your side (yet) it will be a hard slog.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,384
    Location:
    Heidelberg
    Actually, that start was not too bad: a cow for the capital, two more cows and a wheat in prime first-ring distance, a lux and iron. That should be enough for Warlord. (Unfortunately it looks like that wheat has not been used for the entire game?!)
    My first tip for you would be: build more workers! Everything that tjs282 said is right and spot-on, but judging from the screenshot it looks like the single one thing your game has been lacking up to now is: enough workers.
    There is still so much to do:
    • More roads for more commerce
    • Once Electricity comes in, you can irrigate the south and get all your towns there to size 12 as well
    • Cut the jungle in the north
    • Buy coal somewhere and then get your railway network up and running.
    Intombe is building Wealth?? Does it have an Aqueduct already? With a harbor it should still be growing?!
    Found another town next to the wheat and get it growing.
    The iron hill has a mine, but can't be used by any of the cities?!? My second piece of advice would be: plan your town locations better. More than 5000 years have already passed, but two very strong tiles in direct vicinity of the capital - the wheat and the iron - haven't been used for all that time.
    However, I think the game can still be won both ways: peacefully as well as via warfare.
     
  6. WeirdoJoker

    WeirdoJoker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2012
    Messages:
    74
    Location:
    Hillsdale, Portland, Oregon
    I only vaguely remember the game now - I haven't been able to play in a while - and now that I've tried booting it up, it won't launch. (I started a this thread on that point.)

    Anyway, I cannot win peacefully, as I disable all the options except conquest and domination. I should have started a Pangaea, though, because with all this islands / mini-continents I need a ton of ships to carry my cavs overseas. Hopefully I can implement some of these changes to the game once I can get it launched again.
     

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