Looking for Input on Civ changes.

[Kesshi]

Hey there everybody!

I'm thinking of modifying Civ, but not to a crazy different game. I just want to tweak it a little bit here or there. Here is what I've come up with so far:

Spoiler :

-Masonry grants Slavery.
-Chopping is 1/2 as useful to start with.
-Iron Working increases chopping by 100%.
-Mathmatix now increases chopping 100%.
*note* With IW and Math, chopping is as useful as as it was simply with just Math.
-Fishing grantns trade on rivers.
-Sailing no longer grants trade on rivers.
-Priesthood now grants a free Great Prophet.
-Writing now requires only The Wheel, but not Pottery.
-The ability to build culture was moved to Drama.
-Theatres now generate +1 happiness under Hereditary Rule.
-Music no longer requires Mathmatix.
-Music now requires Literature.
-Music now requires Drama.
-The ability to build the Sistine Chapel now requires Mathmatix.
-The ability to build a Cathedral now requires Mathmatix.
-Currency now grants a Great Merchant.
-Construction now grants +1 Road movement.
-Engineering no longer grants +1 Road movement.
-Engineering no longer requires Machinery.
-Theology requires Priesthood.
-Divine Right no longer requires Theology.
-Divine Right now requires Meditation.
-Banking now requires knowledge of Civil Service.
-Economics no longer Obsoletes Castles.
-Economics no longer grants a free Great Merchant.
-Economics grants +1 trade route.
-Economics now obsoletes the Great Lighthouse.
-Corporation no longer grants +1 trade route.
-Corporation no longer obsoletes the Great Lighthouse.
-Constitution now requires knowledge of Printing Press.
-Democracy no longer requeries Printing Press (directly).
-Military Science now requires knowledge of Military Tradition.
-Scientific Method no longer obsoletes The Great Library.
-Scientific Method no longer obsoletes Monasteries.
-Scientific Method now makes Monasteries generate 10% less research (down to 0%.)
-Assembly Line now requires Steel and Rifiling.
-Infantry now require knowledge of Assembly line and Facism.
-Fascism now requires knowledge of Military Science.
-Fascism no longer requires knowledge of Nationalism (directly.)
-Grocers grant +1 healthiness with knowledge of Electricity.
-Refrigeration no longer requires knowledge of Electricity.
-Supermarkets require knowledge of Electricity and Refrigeration.
-Computers no longer Obsolete the Angkor Wat.
-Aluminum now grants +1 happy when mined.
-Aluminum now grants +1 happy with Supermarket.
-Mass Media no longer Obsoletes the Apostolic Palace.
-Mass Media now removes the Apostolic Palace's voting seats.
-Fiber Optics no longer Obsoletes the Kremlin.
-Future Tech now requires Knowledge of all other technologies.

-Scouts and Explorers now attack, but only barbarians.

-Representation now only grants you 2 bonus Beakers per Specialist.

-All Specialists now generate 5 Great Person Points instead of 3.
-Priests Specialists now generate 1 less hammer and 1 more beaker.
-Great Prophets now generate 1 less hammer and 1 more beaker when settled.
-Engineer Specialists now generate 1 more hammer.
-Great Engineers now generate 1 more hammer when settled.
-Great Merchants now generate 2 more food and 1 less gold when settled.
-Great Scientists now generate 1 less hammer when settled.
-Artist Specialists now generate 1 more gold.
-Great Artists Specialists now generate 2 more gold when settled.

New buildings
-A Barn increases healthiness based on the number of working Farms.
-An Electrical Substaion increases production and commerce based on the number of working Windmills.
-A public Park increases gold based on the number of working Forest tiles without Lumbermills. (This includes no upgrades.)
-An Amusement Park increases revenue based on the number of working towns.

This is just a 1st draft, and I'm nowhere near complete. Feedback is welcomed!

Did I do anything that is grosely overpowered?
Did I contradict myself somewhere?
Was I redundant anywhere?
Does a change I made not make sense?
Do you have any suggestions or input?

Also, my spellchecker on my browser died, so if you notice any spelling errors or typos, please let me know.

Thanks for your input everyone!

 

[Refar]

I think moost of it goes to personal taste (like what prereqs make sense or something)... So not much to comment.

My feeling is that those early free GP are to big. Priesthood - it's way before you could even think of popping one - and very powerfull on this stage of the game. Would make the tech nearly a must-have.

 

[CCRunner]

Yeah, the preisthood GP is overpowered I think. If you want a free GP try putting it onto Divine Right.

I do like the buildings based on what tile improvements you're working though. That sounds like a very interesting idea.

 

[Iamcameron]

Interesting ideas; I'll go down the list and just say any opinions that pop out:

"-Priesthood now grants a free Great Prophet." Someone said in another thread that a free great prophet would be better placed at Divine Right. I think Priesthood is a little too early.

"-Theatres now generate +1 happiness under Hereditary Rule." Why?

"-Music no longer requires Mathmatix. -Music now requires Literature. -Music now requires Drama." Again, why? These changes don't really make sense to me.

"-Theology requires Priesthood." I like it. I didn't know this wasn't already the case.

"-Divine Right no longer requires Theology. -Divine Right now requires Meditation." But the idea of the divine right of monarchs is a theological concept and doesn't really have anything to do with meditation.

"-Economics no longer Obsoletes Castles." So when do they obsolete? I think they need to eventually; maybe with corporation or some other economic tech.

"-Economics grants +1 trade route." I think I liked it better at Corp.

"-Economics now obsoletes the Great Lighthouse." Why?

"-Scientific Method no longer obsoletes Monasteries. -Scientific Method now makes Monasteries generate 10% less research (down to 0%.)" I like it.

"-Infantry now require knowledge of Assembly line and Facism." Why would a nation need to understand fascism to build guns?

"-Fascism no longer requires knowledge of Nationalism (directly.)" In the original sense of the term, it was pretty nationalistic.

"-Grocers grant +1 healthiness with knowledge of Electricity." To me, a grocer is an outdoor market.. A grocer equipped with electricity is a supermarket.

"-Computers no longer Obsolete the Angkor Wat." I agree.

"-Aluminum now grants +1 happy when mined. -Aluminum now grants +1 happy with Supermarket." I don't know for myself, but I would say that in todays world aluminum is used more for industrial/military stuff than for consumer goods.

"-Mass Media now removes the Apostolic Palace's voting seats." I don't understand.

"-Fiber Optics no longer Obsoletes the Kremlin." I agree.

"-Future Tech now requires Knowledge of all other technologies." Yes.

About the specialists/great people.. I think 5 GPP is too many and the bonuses from them are too overpowered.

About the buildings... I think that barns/electric companies/amusement parks are already included in the food/hammers/commerce of the areas. Seems to me that the general trend in civ is that cities build municipal buildings instead of private property (but there are the corps, so I don't know. ). As to the park, ok, but I don't think that it would be used very much.


Whatever you decide, it's your game.

 

[vale]

Masonry grants Slavery.

I like this. A boost to Mysticism and it also doesn't hose Mining.

-Chopping is 1/2 as useful to start with.
-Iron Working increases chopping by 100%.
-Mathmatix now increases chopping 100%.

This is a big Bronze working nerf combined with the above. I'm not so sure about this (they have already nerfed forest chops once IIRC).

-Priesthood now grants a free Great Prophet.

I can tell you want to boost the mysticism start tech. This is too much of a boost.

-Currency now grants a Great Merchant.

Currency is already a must have tech. This really overpowers it relative to other similar era techs.

-Engineering no longer requires Machinery.

Early Trebuchets are a big problem here.

-Scientific Method now makes Monasteries generate 10% less research (down to 0%.)

This does nothing effectively then. Monasteries still can produce missionaries after SM and they still generate culture. So if you reduce their research, they are essentially obsolete anyway.
Also the fact that GL never obsoletes means it is even more of a must have than before in most situations.

-Representation now only grants you 2 bonus Beakers per Specialist.

I don't like this. Its not like representation is always the best government civic and running it comes at a cost either in terms of large hammer investment early (pyramids) or pushing for a non-military tech.

-All Specialists now generate 5 Great Person Points instead of 3.

This is probably the biggest balance change and it is not for the better.

-Priests Specialists now generate 1 less hammer and 1 more beaker.

Thats a really bad specialist.

-Great Prophets now generate 1 less hammer and 1 more beaker when settled.

Also, really bad.

-Engineer Specialists now generate 1 more hammer.

This is way too good.

-Great Engineers now generate 1 more hammer when settled.

This is too good

-Great Merchants now generate 2 more food and 1 less gold when settled.

This is insanely powerful. 3 food and 5 gold?

-Great Scientists now generate 1 less hammer when settled.

That is a terrible specialist.

-Artist Specialists now generate 1 more gold.

Ok I can get behind this. They need some help.

-Great Artists Specialists now generate 2 more gold when settled.

Ditto.

The biggest thing I notice is under this rule set, Currency is huge. Settle your free merchant in your future Globe city, whip out a market asap in your GP farm and start running Merchant specialists. That food bonus is huge in a GP farm, or a Globe draft city. It would be quite easy to set up a very early Globe Theater on marathon that could draft rifles every turn.

 

[Chieron]

Hm, I guess, I went a bit over the top, but here are my thoughts:


-Masonry grants Slavery.
Okay, makes BW somewhat less important and beefs up Masonry

-Chopping is 1/2 as useful to start with.
-Iron Working increases chopping by 100%.
-Mathmatix now increases chopping 100%.
*note* With IW and Math, chopping is as useful as as it was simply with just Math.
seems to be quite a strong nerfing there.. making it 3/4 with +100% at maths could accomplish your goal too.

-Fishing grantns trade on rivers.
-Sailing no longer grants trade on rivers.
IIRC, river trade routes do not require any tech, but coastal do (Sailing) not sure, if moving the ability is so meaningful, though

-Priesthood now grants a free Great Prophet.
too strong--essentially grants the first discoverer of Priesthood Theology in one packet..

-Writing now requires only The Wheel, but not Pottery.
what about Priesthood there? seems much like your personal taste..

-The ability to build culture was moved to Drama.
.. not much changed there.

-Theatres now generate +1 happiness under Hereditary Rule.
Why? and what does it actually change? HR has so much happiness to booth.

-Music no longer requires Mathmatix.
-Music now requires Literature.
-Music now requires Drama.
-The ability to build the Sistine Chapel now requires Mathmatix.
-The ability to build a Cathedral now requires Mathmatix.
I really wonder, how often you research Music before Math, and all that JUST for a free great artist..

-Currency now grants a Great Merchant.
too powerful for an already powerful tech

-Construction now grants +1 Road movement.
-Engineering no longer grants +1 Road movement.
again, personal playstyle. Seems also that Constr. is getting strong then with cats+phants+roads

-Engineering no longer requires Machinery.
Nah. too early trebs and illogical.

-Theology requires Priesthood.
no change, I guess

-Divine Right no longer requires Theology.
-Divine Right now requires Meditation.
Nice to get it early, but it is illogical and the tech will still be too expensive. Islam before Christianity is also wrong.

-Banking now requires knowledge of Civil Service.
Meh. Okay

-Economics no longer Obsoletes Castles.
-Economics no longer grants a free Great Merchant.
-Economics grants +1 trade route.
-Economics now obsoletes the Great Lighthouse.
-Corporation no longer grants +1 trade route.
-Corporation no longer obsoletes the Great Lighthouse.
Castles should Obsolete at some point-although Steel or the like might be a better choice of tech there
Why you want to make Economics the ugly obsoleting tech is beyond me

-Constitution now requires knowledge of Printing Press.
-Democracy no longer requeries Printing Press (directly).
Meh. Works, but moves Constitution back, why?

-Military Science now requires knowledge of Military Tradition.
Okay

-Scientific Method no longer obsoletes The Great Library.
-Scientific Method no longer obsoletes Monasteries.
-Scientific Method now makes Monasteries generate 10% less research (down to 0%.)
GLib should obsolete, it is far too powerful elseways
I like the Monastery idea. It always annoys me not to be able to build them any longer (spread a religion without old Mon. and OR) also helps the Rel. Building Econ.

-Assembly Line now requires Steel and Rifiling.
Nah. Corporation would then be behind some tech one tries to avoid with no use. and AssLine is not about the Infantry as a tech but about the Factories.

-Infantry now require knowledge of Assembly line and Facism.
The logic here is beyond me (historical)

-Fascism now requires knowledge of Military Science.
-Fascism no longer requires knowledge of Nationalism (directly.)
okay

-Grocers grant +1 healthiness with knowledge of Electricity.
nonsense

-Refrigeration no longer requires knowledge of Electricity.
-Supermarkets require knowledge of Electricity and Refrigeration.
the change being? getting the naval movement bonus earlier? quite illogical too boot.

-Computers no longer Obsolete the Angkor Wat.
Okay

-Aluminum now grants +1 happy when mined.
-Aluminum now grants +1 happy with Supermarket.
I'm not really sure, why Alu makes people happy, more so in Supermarkets

-Mass Media no longer Obsoletes the Apostolic Palace.
-Mass Media now removes the Apostolic Palace's voting seats.
preserving the hammer bonus, okay.

-Fiber Optics no longer Obsoletes the Kremlin.
okay

-Future Tech now requires Knowledge of all other technologies.
why? it's pretty much requiring them already anyways. and the change would probably affect only 1 in 100 games.


-Scouts and Explorers now attack, but only barbarians.
okay, although 1 strength scouts won't amount to much..

-Representation now only grants you 2 bonus Beakers per Specialist.
weakens the civic severely, not so good.

-All Specialists now generate 5 Great Person Points instead of 3.
-Priests Specialists now generate 1 less hammer and 1 more beaker.
-Great Prophets now generate 1 less hammer and 1 more beaker when settled.
-Engineer Specialists now generate 1 more hammer.
-Great Engineers now generate 1 more hammer when settled.
-Great Merchants now generate 2 more food and 1 less gold when settled.
-Great Scientists now generate 1 less hammer when settled.
-Artist Specialists now generate 1 more gold.
-Great Artists Specialists now generate 2 more gold when settled.
Apart from the artists, I do not like any of these changes, especially the GM one


New buildings
-A Barn increases healthiness based on the number of working Farms.
-An Electrical Substaion increases production and commerce based on the number of working Windmills.
-A public Park increases gold based on the number of working Forest tiles without Lumbermills. (This includes no upgrades.)
-An Amusement Park increases revenue based on the number of working towns.
barn: illogical (a granary would be quite the same actually)
El-Substation: making the WM overpowered - and why doesn't it work with watermills and actually any powerplant?
Parks do not really generate so much revenue, and the preserves under Environmentalism would amount to the same
Amusement Park: aren't towns strong enought yet?



All in all, some nice, some weird and many subpar ideas in my book.

 

[Kesshi]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I really appreciate them.

It seems not everything was welcomee, and that's okay. For example, grocers generating 1 healthiness with electricity seems like a bad idea all around.

I should say, many of these potential changes had nothing to do with logic, but purely game balance, or how I want the game to play. The goal here is to support people who bee-line things, giving them something great at the end (religions, great people, etc) however in the mean time they'll miss out on a lot of great stuff.

One thing I noticed was that people told me that the early GP was too powerful, while others claimed the changes I made to the settled specialists nerfed them too much. This tells me everybody is going to use it to pop something, probably Theology. This got me thinking. Because I belive that GP are too powerful, and I'm nerfing them elsewhere, I think that a nerf to how many beakers they can pop is in order, too. I'm thinking since you'll be able to generate them nearly twice as fast (Specialists GPP went from 3 to 5) there will be many more of them. I'm thinking of cutting the beakers generated from a lightbulb in half.

Hmm, maybe if I changed the early GP from Priesthood to be a free GP when you build the Oracle (instead of the free technology.)

As far as theatres generating +1 happiness under HR, I see HR as a happiness civic, and I want to emphasize that.

The idea behind Divine Right requiring Meditation and no longer Theology is giving someone else a chance to get Divine Right. In theory, one could bee-line Theology, and get it pretty early, and they'd have a clear shot an Divine Right. Just like the early religious rush, you going to go for Buddhism or Mysticism, this emulates that to a degree. I don't like seeing computers with 3 religions and 1 without any religion at all.

"-Infantry now require knowledge of Assembly line and Facism." Why would a nation need to understand fascism to build guns?

Because Infantry is too easy to get too early on. Nothing more. No real logic here, just balance. I've had far too many gams where I discovered gunpowder in about 1200AD and had infantry in 1300AD. That's not right.

"-Fascism no longer requires knowledge of Nationalism (directly.)" In the original sense of the term, it was pretty nationalistic.

Fascism still requires Nationalism, just through it's other required techs. Which would make it redundant, so that's why I put the "directly" part. Fascism still requires Nationalism, just indirectly.

"-Aluminum now grants +1 happy when mined. -Aluminum now grants +1 happy with Supermarket." I don't know for myself, but I would say that in todays world aluminum is used more for industrial/military stuff than for consumer goods.

I was thinking of all the aluminum products we use. (Soda cans anyone?) However this is more of a game balance thing to off-set the fact that Industrialization obsoletes Fur.

About the specialists/great people.. I think 5 GPP is too many and the bonuses from them are too overpowered.

Which is why I lower their bonuses, as well as the Representation bonus from specialists.

The idea here is that your specialists should dictate the GP you get more than your world and national wonders.

Onto vale's post:

This is a big Bronze working nerf combined with the above. I'm not so sure about this (they have already nerfed forest chops once IIRC).

Not really. If you're warmongering, you're going for Iron and Math/Construction anyways, and you won't have the techs to chop-rush wonders. If you're not warmongering, then you won't be able to chop-rush as efficiently, which was my goal. Ultimately, when you get Math and IW, there is no differenc between what we have now.

Currency is already a must have tech. This really overpowers it relative to other similar era techs.

I don't think so. Look in the other directions: A military focus gets full use of chopping, a cultural focus gets a Great Artist, a religious focus gets a Great Prophet and access to stronger religions, etc.

This makes you focus on what you want. Do you want to go for Currency and delay your catapults? Do you want to go for Alphabet and be the first to Alphabet or the first to Currency? The idea here is to make the user focus to get the good stuff.

Early Trebuchets are a big problem here.

Perhaps Trebucts could require Machinery then... hmm. I'm not sure about this.

Oh, I noticed I never obsoleted castles. I don't like obsoleting buildings that actually do something. Just because I have rifles doesn't mean my enemy won't still have longbowmen. Granted, the +1 trade route needs to be removed, I could do that at economics.

Regarding your comments on specialists, I don't think making Engineer Specialists and Great Engineer specialists generate more hammers is bad because they do NOT produce gold. Great Prophets DO generate gold. Under current civ rules the Angkor Wat makes your Great Prophet as useful as a Great Engineer in term of production, while generating gold. Also a Great Prophet is much more versatile than a Great Engineer, and much easier to generate! Though it should be noted that a settled Great Engineer will generate 1 more hammer than a settled Great Prophet + Angkor Wat.

Regardless, this is not balanced beacuse the GP still produces gold, and can lightbulb lots of things, or make holy shrines. To put it bluntly, it is difficult to generate Great Engineers, and easy to generate Great Prophets. Each Great Person doesn't need to be equal.

Oh, and regarding the Great Merchants, I should have put them as 1 more food and 2 less gold. I transposed my numbers. That should be 2 food 4 gold. My apologies.

Chieron's post:

-Music no longer requires Mathmatix.
-Music now requires Literature.
-Music now requires Drama.
-The ability to build the Sistine Chapel now requires Mathmatix.
-The ability to build a Cathedral now requires Mathmatix.
I really wonder, how often you research Music before Math, and all that JUST for a free great artist..

With current Civ, Aesthetics is very sought after from the AI, most will trade alphabet to me for it, so I usually take that path and get the free Great Artist...and then use it to pop Theology! If you learn Drama and Monarchy, the GA can pop Theology, making that free Great Person very useful.

Requiring math didn't fit the "bee-line to something" nature of the game I want, but requiring both Literature and Drama did.

-Assembly Line now requires Steel and Rifiling.
Nah. Corporation would then be behind some tech one tries to avoid with no use. and AssLine is not about the Infantry as a tech but about the Factories.

-Infantry now require knowledge of Assembly line and Facism.
The logic here is beyond me (historical)

You're right. It's purely for game balance. With current Civ, you can build Infantry before you have the ability to manufacture Cannons and Grenaders. This makes no sense to me. Early Infantry are far too powerful, thus needed a nerf in my opinion.

-Refrigeration no longer requires knowledge of Electricity.
-Supermarkets require knowledge of Electricity and Refrigeration.
the change being? getting the naval movement bonus earlier? quite illogical too boot.

Perhaps this one has the silliest reason to change of them all. My father owns a company that used to refrigerate things for a fee, back before home Refrigeration. People would pay him money, and he'd store goods in an ice room. He'd get the ice carted in on the rail tracks that went right up to the back of his warehouse. There was no electricity required for Refrigeration, thus there shouldn't be any!

I told you it was the silliest reason to change.

-Future Tech now requires Knowledge of all other technologies.
why? it's pretty much requiring them already anyways. and the change would probably affect only 1 in 100 games.

Or every game of mine that I play and get that far! Remember it's +1 health and +1 happiness bonus from each FT. If I need some extra health or happiness, I'll grab 2 or 3 FT before heading back and grabing other things. The ability to do this has always bothered me.

-Representation now only grants you 2 bonus Beakers per Specialist.
weakens the civic severely, not so good.

That's the idea. Representation is far far too powerful imo.

I do not like any of these changes, especially the GM one

The GM was a typo on my part. it should read:

-Great Merchants now generate 1 more food and 2 less gold when settled.

Does that change the way you feel about it?


Edit: Keep the ideas coming. I'll work on this some more over the next few days. I really like your guys feedback, even the parts where you say "this sucks!" It's all useful and helpful. And even if it is personal preference, I like to hear other people's thoughts. For example, I didn't think about the Priesthood --> Theology lightbulb right away, which is helpful to my decision making!

Thanks again, everybody.

 

[vale]

That's the idea. Representation is far far too powerful imo.

If representation is far too powerful, what are you doing to fix HR? It comes much earlier in the tech tree and in many empires is the better option. Is this all about the Pyramids? Trust me if you are doing 10 hammer chops (thanks BW nerf) without stone, you won't ever build the Pyramids in a timely fashion. Even with stone it will take forever.

And if you actually have to tech to Constitution, you don't think is reasonable to get something at least mildly comparable to HR?

 

[Chieron]

I don't think so. Look in the other directions: A military focus gets full use of chopping, a cultural focus gets a Great Artist, a religious focus gets a Great Prophet and access to stronger religions, etc.

This makes you focus on what you want. Do you want to go for Currency and delay your catapults? Do you want to go for Alphabet and be the first to Alphabet or the first to Currency? The idea here is to make the user focus to get the good stuff.

Well, without currency, your shiny swordsmen and catapults on your military route might have to sit idle or opt for a strike (no money)
The GP of Priesthood would also sit on the same route as it leads to Writing.
and while you would get a great artist for music instead of math/currency, I really doubt that it would be feasible on higher levels - if e.g. the theology bulb would be contested, a music detour is a bit strange (most of the stuff there is fairly useless for quite some time anyways)


Considering refrigeration: I know that cooling was done with natural ice before the invention of the refrigerator - but this invention is what you are researching there! (figuring out that stuff gets cold if put on ice is not worth so many beakers..)

When you look at the Issue with Infantry/Musketman, it is more the fact that Gunpowder/Steel/the lower tech tree gets neglected for a long time, not that Infantry comes too early. As you yourself pointed out, you wanted to reward beelining (in this case AssLine)..

I was thinking of all the aluminum products we use. (Soda cans anyone?) However this is more of a game balance thing to off-set the fact that Industrialization obsoletes Fur.

You have the Radio/MM wonder resources for that. (Also, markets still give +1 for furs). Also, I don't think, I'd would be any less happy, if there where no soda cans anywhere and we had only bottles..

When you look at Representation, don't forget that it really has to compete with other powerful civics (and has problems considering the UN), it should be strong enough to allow the SE to stay competetive in the CE ages..

2f4g Merchants would be better, although it still is quite much (I never quite liked the idea of them producing food anyway). especially as the GM now produces less money than a GP (not really their profession..)
Also, GPersons should be comparable, their costs are quite similar (and although a GP is easy to generate and very valuable in the beginning, it's GA-fodder later, when no shrines are left to build and tech bulbing is restricted to DR/nothing) . Settled GEs also produce Science btw, not only hammers.

Why should Future Tech require for example Divine Right?
Most techs it does not directly require would not really be needed logically. And if you always get to FT, your playstyle is really nonstandard.. (I mean, usually you should tech the SS parts or steamroll the rest of the world at that stage)

Lastly, encouraging religious diversity would be nice, but what is so problematic with one AI founding more religions - especially Islam. I mean, it just means that they lack military/economic techs and you can conquer/outtech them probably. The religion problem might be solved better, if AI would be discouraged(not prevented) to research a tech enabling a religion if they already own a holy city. Actually, DR is a lousy tech to enable Islam in a historical context as the wonders and cost suggest that it refers to the Absolutism period, 1000 years after the actual founding - a different/earlier tech might be a better choice (don't know which one, though)

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

jungle chop give half the hammers as forest!

 

[7Fang]

You have the Radio/MM wonder resources for that. (Also, markets still give +1 for furs). Also, I don't think, I'd would be any less happy, if there where no soda cans anywhere and we had only bottles..


Maybe give +1 since recycling cans is a heck of a lot easier than recycling glass.

 

[vicawoo]

I kept a mental list of my comments, and they mostly coincide with vale. Let's look at chopping, for now. 10 hammers over 4 turns of chopping, for a net whopping 2.5 hammers per turn. Early game (no iron working, it's very expensive), why wouldn't I just build mines (+2/turn indefinitely)?

Early GP, too strong, even if it's only for a bulb or a 1700 gold trade mission. Priests are a little weak as it is, weaker than half an engineer and half a merchant. 1 hammer Great Prophet, horrible.

Writing requires pottery OR priesthood. I don't get this if its part of the whole weaken GP deal.

Barn unfair, it's basically +1 food for all farms at the health cap.

 

[Kesshi]

I'm reading them all, and taking it all into consideration. Even if I'm not replying to your comment directly, I am thinking about it.

Barn unfair, it's basically +1 food for all farms at the health cap.

vicawoo,

Who ever said it would be 1 to 1? Perhaps .50 health per farm worked, or maybe .25. I understand 1 to 1 would be unwise.

 

[Fezzik]

I like the idea of not obsoleting monasteries+missionaries. Never made sense that you couldn't produce missionaries without OR for the rest of the game if you didn't build them early. Also better chance of a different religion for each civ is a good goal.

It may be completely unrelated, but I'd like someone to fix the slavery mechanic. It doesn't make sense that it is more efficient to use slavery to whip axemen than the Pyramids. Well, checking the wikipedia entry, perhaps they were paid workers, but there were hundreds of thousands of them, and they didn't all hop in and finish it in the last decade, like how it works in Civ4. Slave specialists would make more sense, as ugly as that sounds. Edited to add: in Civ4 you chop trees to build Pyramids. I guess if you want to roll stone blocks on logs...but that's a stretch.