Looks like Firaxis has two options....

[Theodorick]

You know, I'd love to be in Firaxis's office on monday. That meeting should be interesting lol. I almost feel bad for Will & Dave. I feel like they put heart and soul into this and we're mostly ripping it to pieces. And I feel bad for Pete, who is likely reading these forums. So much negativity has to be crushing.

CivBE can be a great game. Lots of us are having fun and can see the potential. It needs some major fixing though. I hope they give it the attention it deserves. After a few balancing patches, some UI tweaks, and an expansion it could be a Civ that stands the test of time.

I highly doubt anything will be different Monday. The forums look like this with every new civ release. Tons of people with complaints come to the forums complaining, while there's only a handful praising the game.

It's a big part of game culture, especially when the hype is huge. It's very rare for a launch to not be surrounded by negativity. I know some people say 'The minority that hate the game are busy complaining on the forums, while everyone else is busy playing the game', but it's honestly not that simple, even if that is sometimes a part of it. In actuality it's a very layered phenomenon containing...

1. The game not being polished and awaiting patches, expansions, and dlcs. This is so common with big game releases these days I wonder why anyone is surprised anymore.
2. The game not making up for the hype. Admit it, almost no games do, and some people get disappointed by this.
3. People expecting the same type of game from before, or people expecting a completely different and heavily altered game. Both camps start complaining with nearly every single game release, even though devs tend to aim for the something in between.
4. The fact that the more people playing, the more people there are to complain. A game's popularity usually peaks at launch, so this is the time when it seems like there's a tidal wave of negative opinion, even for good games.
5. People not understanding the game yet and complaining about things they don't yet understand. Yes I see this pop up often with every game release, and this one is no exception. Most people are launch are noobs after all, so it's expected.
6. People that hate the series or changes to the series anyways, and want to chime in.

... and there's many more reasons. They all make the perfect storm at a game's launch, resulting in a flurry of negativity. I am sure many devs are jaded by this by now. I know I am.

 

[markusbeutel]

I can pretty definitively say they are doing both. Just how far along they are with Civ 6, I couldn't say, but its development is pretty inevitable. Any release carrying the word "Civilization" in the title is guaranteed several million dollars in sales, regardless of how much it is anticipated. How well it will be received remains to be seen.

Going back to Civ 4, there has been a consistent pattern for the Civ titles: The current game is released and the reviews and critiques are about 50/50 good/bad. And even most of the favorable reviews suggest that A LOT of polishing is still called for. And the polishing that inevitably follows is 2, 3, 4 expansions and/or content DLCs, each of which have sales on a par with the initial core game release. (DLC sales are nearly 100% initial game sales, in units.) When a follow-up expansion is nearly all favorable reviews -- Civ 4 wasn't "complete" until BTS, and Civ 5 wasn't "complete" until BNW -- then it's time to start getting serious about developing the next Civ installment. [The exception to this was Civilization IV: Colonization , because I think nearly everyone (including Firaxis) didn't view it as being "a real Civ game, having been released initially as it's own genre of 4X that was only "Civ-like" in nature. So no expansions for that one.] I expect that CBE _will_ follow this pattern. It even indicates in the game manual that there WILL be DLCs coming in the future. They wouldn't make such a statement there unless there was already DLC well into development.

In regards to the player feedback in places like here on this forum, pay very close attention to the fact that the voices you hear are from a very _tiny_ percentage of the total number of consumers. But there is a Marketing perception that each consumer that expends the effort to share his views is representative of the attitudes held by at least XXXX other consumers that seldom if ever speak up. That is, the talkers are more motivated to speak out, one way or another. HOWEVER, before making any calculations, a percentage of the "Yay! Love it!" statements should be discounted (tossed out) as they are essentially fanboys that inevitably say nothing but praise for their favorite game or manufacturer. By their very nature, fanboys are outspoken and verbal, so their opinions are pretty much their opinions, not representative of anyone else. So they get tossed out of the equation.

So, taking the feedback here as being a good sample, it looks to me that the reactions are about 50/50. Toss out the fanboys and I'm thinking 40-45/55-60 in favor. With nearly everyone indicating the game needs a LOT of work before it's as good as Civ 4/BTS or Civ 5/BNW. That suggests to me that we will be seeing 2-3 expansions and about a half-dozen content DLCs, spaced out over nearly two years. That would put Civ 6 on track for an initial release late 2016/early 2017.

I doubt there will be any expansions for this - it's most likely standalone, just like the remake of Colonization using the Civ IV engine. IMO we can expect patches at best.

 

[Thander]

I think it will get at least one expansion, just like XCOM did. I don't think this game is holding back Civ VI at all. Both games have separate designers. People like Ed Beach are probably designing Civ VI now while the Civ BE designers continue to polish it up with patches and expansions. The majority of the programmers and artists will be working on Civ BE until Civ VI has a solid enough design.

 

[Human Crouton]

Every time I play this game I just think: "This game will be so awesome after the first expansion." I think an expansion is coming next year.

 

[Dasphios]

Even number sequels tend to be be better than the odd numbers anyways. Keep the hexes and move everything else back toward IV... Maybe finally a spherical instead of cylindrical map.

Those're mutually exclusive, I fear- hexes won't tessellate into a sphere.

 

[Dale]

You know, I'd love to be in Firaxis's office on monday. That meeting should be interesting lol. I almost feel bad for Will & Dave. I feel like they put heart and soul into this and we're mostly ripping it to pieces. And I feel bad for Pete, who is likely reading these forums. So much negativity has to be crushing.

The civ fan forums equate to about 5% of sales. What's said in fan forums means nothing.

CivBE has been top 10 since release for plays and sales. That meeting will be a positive one not a negative one.

Is it crushing to realise our opinions here mean nothing anymore?

 

[Stalker0]

Not a pretty picture, but that pattern has become increasingly something that gamers are being conditioned to accept as "the norm". Pretty much, "It is what it is, and there's nothing we can do about it."

Great post!

What I am curious is if buying patterns will ever alter because of this phenomena. In other words, will people stop prebuying and buying on opening day...because the norm is an unfinished product.

Based on current trends I don't think that has happened yet, and companies are unlikely to change the model if the consumer lashback ultimately doesn't cause a loss of sales.

 

[Drakarska]

The civ fan forums equate to about 5% of sales. What's said in fan forums means nothing.

CivBE has been top 10 since release for plays and sales. That meeting will be a positive one not a negative one.

Is it crushing to realise our opinions here mean nothing anymore?

Pretty much agree with this. This is a trend which companies are more than happy to capitalize on.

@ Dale; Dale, weren't you part of the Frankenstein group?

 

[rastak]

Twenty years ago (yes, I go back that far) the quote was, 'are you going to buy it or wait for the patch?'

'Wait for the patch' was a good option twenty years ago and it looks to be a good option now.

I don't watch tv shows on cable, I wait a year for the dvd box to come out and watch them without commericals or 'bugs' on the screen. I guess if I can wait a year for the next season of 'Grimm' I can wait a year for a new game.

I confess I did buy 'Endless Legend' before it was even released. But it was thirty bucks, not fifty.

Well, I go back to when the installer was borked on Buzz Aldrin and they had to mail me a floppy. SNAIL MAIL ME A PHYSICAL DISK.

Honestly, whatever. I buy stuff and either I have fun or don't don't. I have had fun the last two days both single player and multi on Fri night. You can celebrate, whine, express your enjoyment or shake your fist.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I think it will get at least one expansion, just like XCOM did. I don't think this game is holding back Civ VI at all. Both games have separate designers. People like Ed Beach are probably designing Civ VI now while the Civ BE designers continue to polish it up with patches and expansions. The majority of the programmers and artists will be working on Civ BE until Civ VI has a solid enough design.

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for, a single expansion to fill in the blanks (and, of course, patches to fix the actual problems).

XCOM:EW rounded out the mid- and late game, filling in open space in the design, Civ:BE has similar issues.

My gut tells me no expansions, though, seeing how Civ 4 Colonisation was done.

 

[rastak]

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for, a single expansion to fill in the blanks (and, of course, patches to fix the actual problems).

XCOM:EW rounded out the mid- and late game, filling in open space in the design, Civ:BE has similar issues.

My gut tells me no expansions, though, seeing how Civ 4 Colonisation was done.

That was a remake of the first which I loved. This is sort of a new IP.

I agree with the people upset about the AI. I hope they support it with one team while another works Civ 6.

 

[Kutuzov]

The civ fan forums equate to about 5% of sales. What's said in fan forums means nothing.

CivBE has been top 10 since release for plays and sales. That meeting will be a positive one not a negative one.

Is it crushing to realise our opinions here mean nothing anymore?

I'd agree with the central statement but not with your somewhat self-indulgent gloomy view that our opinion means nothing. It just doesn't matter to them as much as we'd like it to

While some may be disappointed that the lead developers are going to get praised in that meeting on Monday rather than the caning some folks would obviously like to watch them get on Youtube, there's no good reason to feel that a lot of what folks are unhappy about won't be better after the first patch. They do care about their game because they hope to make a lot of money out of it in the months to come. They should be able to focus on balancing because the game is already quite stable on release.

 

[Matthew.]

Probably at least one full expansion. I'd be surprised at two. CiV was barebones on release, and had room for two expansions. And at the very least, it is always an opportunity to add more countries, which people love.

So the question will come down to what they can add to BE to make it a better experience.

Reviews and player impressions are pretty much what I expected them to be. Go back a few months on the Civ 5 forum and look at the topics on BE. Even then there were quite a few people not all that excited to play Civ 5 in space.

 

[rastak]

I'd agree with the central statement but not with your somewhat self-indulgent gloomy view that our opinion means nothing. It just doesn't matter to them as much as we'd like it to

While some may be disappointed that the lead developers are going to get praised in that meeting on Monday rather than the caning some folks would obviously like to watch them get on Youtube, there's no good reason to feel that a lot of what folks are unhappy about won't be better after the first patch. They do care about their game because they hope to make a lot of money out of it in the months to come. They should be able to focus on balancing because the game is already quite stable on release.

They do care about the hard core fringe element. They include them in their testing. Most people are not in that group so they are heard but not the be all end all. A quick example:

"If I farm every tile and then select this then that and let health go to zero I can win easy".

Most people don't give a rats you know what and don't play that way. I suppose there are some mental defects that internally force people to do that but it's a game in the ends.

I'm a fanatic too but jeez, really?

 

[CaptainPatch]

What I am curious is if buying patterns will ever alter because of this phenomena. In other words, will people stop prebuying and buying on opening day...because the norm is an unfinished product.

Based on current trends I don't think that has happened yet, and companies are unlikely to change the model if the consumer lashback ultimately doesn't cause a loss of sales.

The publishing side of the equation (as I described the pattern) will probably solidify along those lines. That's just a matter of business realities. BUT (huge, big "but") as distribution moves steadily towards digital distribution, production overhead drops significantly. Like, so much that a manufacturer can afford to hand out 40% discounts and still be raking in more Profit than back when games were primarily sold as boxed hard copy retail units. Another BUT is that consumers have been acclimated to paying
that full retail price. So to our mindset, Pavlov-sized as we are, being offered a 20% discount to make a pre-order seems like BIG savings. Shopping around and finding a 25% discount feels like a "real bargain" -- despite the fact that the manufacturers would still be making a Profit margin 15% higher than "back in the day". So, for the prospect of "saving" so much on a title that the buyer WILL be acquiring eventually -- really, what Civ Fanatic isn't going to buy a Civ game, no matter how buggy it is now? -- the pre-order seems the way to go. In the worst case scenario, the game is so buggy as to be unplayable now. But the patches and DLCs _are_ assuredly coming, and somewhere down the line all of the followup products WILL be transforming that buggy initial release into a decent game. Think of it as gamer's "layaway". Yes, if the actual play of the game waits until the whole kit and kaboodle lands in the Bargain Bin Specials, the out-of-pocket cost WILL be lower. But in the meantime, there's always the more-than-distinct chance that the gameplay of the initial release + first patch will be adequately satisfying (but with room for improvement), so why risk missing out? So even knowing the degree of glitchiness of initial releases, most consumers are saying "Why wait?"

 

[Stalker0]

The publishing side of the equation (as I described the pattern) will probably solidify along those lines. That's just a matter of business realities. BUT (huge, big "but") as distribution moves steadily towards digital distribution, production overhead drops significantly. Like, so much that a manufacturer can afford to hand out 40% discounts and still be raking in more Profit than back when games were primarily sold as boxed hard copy retail units. Another BUT is that consumers have been acclimated to paying
that full retail price. So to our mindset, Pavlov-sized as we are, being offered a 20% discount to make a pre-order seems like BIG savings. Shopping around and finding a 25% discount feels like a "real bargain" -- despite the fact that the manufacturers would still be making a Profit margin 15% higher than "back in the day". So, for the prospect of "saving" so much on a title that the buyer WILL be acquiring eventually -- really, what Civ Fanatic isn't going to buy a Civ game, no matter how buggy it is now? -- the pre-order seems the way to go. In the worst case scenario, the game is so buggy as to be unplayable now. But the patches and DLCs _are_ assuredly coming, and somewhere down the line all of the followup products WILL be transforming that buggy initial release into a decent game. Think of it as gamer's "layaway". Yes, if the actual play of the game waits until the whole kit and kaboodle lands in the Bargain Bin Specials, the out-of-pocket cost WILL be lower. But in the meantime, there's always the more-than-distinct chance that the gameplay of the initial release + first patch will be adequately satisfying (but with room for improvement), so why risk missing out? So even knowing the degree of glitchiness of initial releases, most consumers are saying "Why wait?"

Once again, great post. I appreciate the insight into that side of the equation.

 

[Dale]

@ Dale; Dale, weren't you part of the Frankenstein group?

I used to be. Wasn't for CivBE.

 

[59saintdane]

I'd be disappointed if they didn't make an expansion pack for BE. It's got excellent potential, it just needs a lot of work. If and when they make an expansion, it'll hopefully have the same effect as G&K did on Civ 5--turning a "meh" game into an outstanding one.

 

[Acken]

Like, so much that a manufacturer can afford to hand out 40% discounts and still be raking in more Profit than back when games were primarily sold as boxed hard copy retail units. [...] despite the fact that the manufacturers would still be making a Profit margin 15% higher than "back in the day".

Maybe but what numbers are you able to provide to support that claim ?

 

[Markstar]

Every Civ release reminds me of Star Wars & George Lucas. He, like Sid Meier, once created something epic, but later proved that his legacy would have been better in other hands.

Every release since Civ2 has been one major <snip>-up after another...
Civ3 was extremely buggy, so much so that some big features where not EVER actually implemented (e.g. Great Scientists), even though they were advertised with on the freakin' package!
Civ4 was also incredibly buggy, and for the first time it became evident just how bad the people at Firaxis actually were at their job when some fans created better patches within DAYS than the "programmers" at Firaxis could manage after MONTHS! Add to that the game ran slow even on high-end machines and it was very clear to everyone with a brain that the team there was either incompetent or improperly guided/motivated.
Civ5, big surprise, was also buggy and slow, but additionally the AI can't deal with the new one unit per tile concept and thereby making this game a joke.

I'm a computer scientist myself (knew I'd be one the moment I played Civ1 and though it was so cool that I could "hack" the intro text (by editing a text file)), so I know how difficult it is to produce bug-free code. But seriously, the only reason Firaxis is still on the map is that they can bank on the name Sid Meier and have the IP for Civilization.

This is not about "hype" or to high expectations. It's about that that in the computer world, you expect the next installment of something to make things better, not be inferior to an earlier product.

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