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Looks like the AI is still poor in Rise and Fall.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Xaviarlol, Jan 15, 2018.

  1. omega4

    omega4 Chieftain

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    Let's face reality: if the devs could have fixed Civ 6's AI, they would have done so already. But they can't. So they're leaving it to modders to do their jobs for them.

    I'm autoplaying Civ 5 Vox Populi at the moment. The AI is amazing.

    The AI is exploring, expanding, exploiting, and exterminating. The AI attacks and retreats when it should. The AI builds navies and uses them to bomb, harass, and blockade.

    Last but certainly not least, the AI builds air units AND USES THEM. To great effect. Bombing and strafing. It's all there and the AI does it.

    The reality is the devs don't have anyone at the moment who can fix Civ 6's AI (or unit sound clipping effects). Maybe they will hire a coder who can one day if they deem this issue important enough. But I don't think they will (or else they would have done it already).
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  2. FairFenix

    FairFenix Chieftain

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    That is not an excuse for a game that has gathered such a big audience and sold so many copies! Especially after you see that modders managed to do it. Firaxis just don't respect their community enough and expects us to always act like elementary students who would get high from Disney style characters, even though this is NOT an RPG!
     
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  3. omega4

    omega4 Chieftain

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    Don't even get me started on the Fortnite cartoonish art style of Civ6 lol. Even though the art style isn't a deal breaker for me, it certainly doesn't help.

    I read somewhere that the devs chose the cartoonish art style to make it easier to see things on the map.

    Well, I don't see it. I find the art style of Civ5 much better in that regards (and it looks great as well).
     
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  4. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Good grief! There is little sense in fixing everything until the game is feature complete.

    They have addressed some issues (needing to build markets and lighthouses to get trade routes) and will continue to refine the game as time goes on. They are working on it.

    People really have short memories.

    Civilization 5 was far, far, far, far, far, far worse at this period of it’s cycle.

    Civ VI will blow Civilization 5 out of the water when all is said and done.
     
    Alexander's Hetaroi likes this.
  5. omega4

    omega4 Chieftain

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    No one is forgetting anything.

    Why do we have to wait for OTHER features to be included in order for basic Civ6 features (e.g. AI not building/using air units, unit sounds clipping in and out) to be fixed now?

    Why isn't Civ6 closer to "perfection" given how Civ5 was anything but?

    Why are there always gamers who make excuses for game developers instead of holding developers to a higher standard?
     
  6. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    It’ll get done. Firaxis is doing the best with what the have. Go after greedy 2K Games. They are ultimately responsible.
     
  7. earlc

    earlc Warlord

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    Nah, there are numerous reasons why this wouldn't come down to simple coding ability. That's extremely doubtful. But this topic has been so done to death that there's no entertainment value left in delving into speculation - suffice it to say Firaxis doesn't have sole control over what they get to work on and for how long. The fact of the matter is that the AI has improved in certain capacities since release, but still has a way to go.

    Not sure this is a matter of excuses as much as a matter of simple economics. The game is selling despite the AI being bonkers at war sometimes, among other things. They'll continue fix what they can within the budget, typically alongside DLC or xpac releases. If it bothers you that much, just don't buy the next iteration. I doubt the publisher will notice regardless, the Civ franchise itself is relatively small...but that's about all you can do without supporting the mod scene.
     
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  8. omega4

    omega4 Chieftain

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    You still failed to address the point as you rationalized the actions of the publisher / developer.

    Why don't gamers hold developers / publishers to a higher standard?
     
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  9. FairFenix

    FairFenix Chieftain

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    The way I understand it, Firaxis (or 2K) have pushed the serious community behind the scenes (compared to civ 3 and 4) and let them play with their mods, while themselves focusing on attracting casual players with this "alternative history" thing.
    I believe that with the advanced and smart AI the game would be able to reveal its chessboard potential, with all its complicated layers of strategy.
    Also, casual players also deserve to have their brain cells spared, because I am sure that they don't know how to properly play the game.
    It's like playing checkers with chess pieces.

    It was more or less understandable that this was an issue with the first hex/1upt game (civ 5). But this is Civilization 6 already and it is about time to solve the AI issue once and for all

    I perfectly understand the modern marketing system, but Civilization series has inherited from previous iterations the responsibility to help players become smarter, and this is why it is a bit unethical to allow AI being cheated without actually involving player's decision to cheat
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  10. Kruos

    Kruos Warlord

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    Without AI improvment, espescially on the tactical layer, the gameplay of this game is doomed. They can build whatever mechanism they want, without a proper AI able to defend itself and handle its units decently the whole thing callopse.

    An example : last time we were playing with a friend with some AIs (all standard settings, Emperor difficulty), we both decided to not rush the AIs to let them developp a little, to make the game more cool (cooler than a dumb pseudo-wargame at least), but at a quite advanced point in the game my friend was DOWed by 3 advanced AIs because his military was weak, he was really taken by surprise and had only a handfull of military units, whereas his neighbors had an armada of units, and guess what... despite that he crushed them. One by one he killed every attacking units, from 3 AIs, more advanced than him. We stopped playing shortly after realizing that. This entire game we were playing was actually a Moderator Action: <SNIP> mascerade.

    It is in this kind situation that an improvment of the tactical AI become absolutely necessary, because it kills everything, the fun, the immersion, and the game in finé. No one wants to play a mascerade.

    Moderator Action: Please help us keep the forums family friendly by using appropriate language. Thanks, leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2018
  11. Cronos

    Cronos Chieftain

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    Yes Agree 100% Kruos. You can even beat the game without building any units. In fact the whole unit tree is redundant as you become invincible as soon as you get walls up in your cities and for me its a deal breaker for the game. I hope the expansion will fix this but am not holding my breath. Even HOMM 3 had a better tactical layer to deal with city sieges than this and its 20 years older than Civ!! Maybe the devs can put in an option to have city defences or not?
     
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  12. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Not necessarily true, I have had the AI take out my ancient walls and conquer my city. It only happened once, because I wasn't prepared, but it happened. You do need at least some units, or that will happen. I think I only had a single archer, and it wasn't enough.
     
  13. FairFenix

    FairFenix Chieftain

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    These are different game genres. Civ 4 was the franchise's peak in terms of war-gaming. I think it is relatively easy to fix this gameplay weakness by somehow boosting AI's units power specifically when they are attacking player's city (Reducing bombardment power; reducing player's city health etc). Also, I believe, the warmongering score should adjust the city's HP and power. So that surprise wars would be much more difficult to handle.

    P.S. Another suggestion is reducing received damage from ranged attack based on how far is the target (full damage only if adjacent, open terrain)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  14. omega4

    omega4 Chieftain

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    I just finished a great All AI Autoplay with Civ5 Vox Populi. I'm documenting the match here if you want to see an example of a great Civ AI in action (the AI builds AND uses aircraft):

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ5-vox-populi-amazing-ai.626971/

    Frankly, the Civ6 devs should be ashamed that they are unable to release a competent Civ6 AI from the start.
     
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  15. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Lol. You are playing a mod of a game that came out in 2010. Civilization 5 was an unmitigated disaster upon release. Absolutely horrendous. It took many, many years before the game was even half decent. The community rescued it with Vox Populi.

    Then you are comparing it to Civ VI which came out less than a year and a half ago and hasn’t even had its first expansion.

    Give it 6 more years and let the community make a great mod for it and then let’s compare apples to apples.
     
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  16. trev1972

    trev1972 Warlord

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    I hope the AI is improved, i havent played for a month or so now, i clocked up 120 hours in total, so still good for a game, but thats a lot less than the time i clocked on civ iv.

    The AI incompetence is a big part of why i stopped playing, i dont actually believe civ iv had better AI, but it felt that way when you played which is what matters. I will still get the expansion though.
     
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  17. oedali

    oedali King

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    I'm terrified that the AI will not know how to cope with the new loyalty system and continue to found far away cities and constantly lose them to other civs and free cities, same way they lose settlers. Effectively providing yet another handicap to AI and a boost to the human player.
     
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  18. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Warlord

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    I agree with you on this, however they fixed the rampant forward settling problem already on the video playthroughs we have seen so far.

    In some ways, I am worried that the new system is too punishing on the player and makes playing the game boring. The civ roster, while intriguing, is kinda "meh" since there are only a few fan favorites to play with.
     
  19. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    I'm worried about the opposite and that the AI will avoid taking cities that will have negative pressure. Or won't know to swing a governor in. But I'm not at all worried they'll forward settle a city to just lose it. Everything we've seen so far indicates the opposite.
     
  20. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Warlord

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    So I set up a battle royal at the OP's request, and set it to deity. I watched the game up until someone got to the atomic era.

    Observations:

    1. The barbarian problems are much worse than I knew before! (I haven't played a game with barbs on in several months) The horsemen barbs literally crippled 2 civs outright stunting their growth for the entire game, and causing neighbors that did not get unlucky on barbs to push them down further. I have more thoughts on this, but that might be offtopic and probably belongs in Disgustipated's Barb Thread.

    2. The AI is very aggressive at taking cities. However, like the OP says, once walls were up, they took less cities and made less attempts overall. I saw Nubia try to take a capital in a stupid fashion. They used one knight and one musketman, but instead of working on the wall together, one attacked, backed off, then the other tried once, then it looked like Nubia peaced out, but had it kept trying, it would have gotten that city. Also, the AI never used a battering ram even once at any location. I did not see a single one even built. I did see catapults (their fav) and bombards, but only Nubia did that. The others were not that interested in war.

    3. I saw ZERO settlers walking unescorted for the entire game. There were 2 barb captured settlers, but I watched them beat up the escorts (which were not scouts either) and take them. Of course the culprits were horseman barbs.

    4. The AI stops conducting wars after industrial era it seems. This is old news and a long reported issue/concern. Might even be by design by the devs, especially with the new expansion coming out.

    5. Settler Freeze is still a major problem. There is a thread about it in the bug forum, where the AI will have a settler unit stay frozen in one spot for an entire game. A spot got taken and it does not know to find somewhere else to go, so it stays put with it's escort attached. I also saw that this issue affects units as well. Some did not move for over 100 turns.

    The AI isn't quite as stupid as the OP and Kruos reported, but they have valid points in spots.
     
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