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Losing a wonder by 1 turn in early game, completely screwed?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Artifex1, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. Artifex1

    Artifex1 Warlord

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    I lost stonehenge in my capital early game by 1 turn and notice I get nothing for the loss. Did I just get royaly screwed bigtime?
     
  2. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    I believe so yes.

    Dont start building wonders lightheartedly. Even not considering this risk, many are not worth building, espescially early in the game when you could be building settlers or capturing cities instead. Only in specific occasions it is worth building them and you need a plan to make sure you're not going to lose it. (like doing lots of forest cuts with workers built elsewhere)
     
  3. blasto

    blasto Prince

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    Or just auto load several turns before and do what you can to bump production... chop some trees or something. It shouldn't take too much to skew that one turns worth
     
  4. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    unless you are playing gotm or just want to play without reloading for yourself.

    I really wanted to point out though the poor risk+cost vs reward of building early wonders.
    If this would be GOTM3 (i havent started so i can talk about it) so that your predetermined victory condition is a religious one, i think it is a decision not to take lightly. Surely its the fastest way to get a religion and thus this might be one of those special cases where building a wonder might be worth it.

    But consider the cost. It only produces 2 faith. You will be building holy sites and other religious stuff anyways because you will be needing the faith for your religious victory. All that stuff is going to give great prophet points so getting a religion is going to happen anyways. You are only getting it a bit earlier. I personally dont think i will be building it even if there were no risk of losing the build.

    The exception would possibly be if i decided to go for an approach with minimal religion. Meaning i'd plan to conquer the world except for 1 city i convert and thus all i need is this 1 great prophet and 1 missionary or something. In that case i could imagine stonehenge could be cosidered. But it would still be a hard decision because it would mean i'd want to build 2-3 cities and then an army ASAP rather than spend production on an early wonder while after i sent out my armies, i have dozens of turns to do nothing but make that 1 prophet and 1 missionary happen by any means available.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  5. blasto

    blasto Prince

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    In which case, yeah, you're screwed.
     
  6. Tdot1

    Tdot1 Chieftain

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    Just look at it as an extra challenge, people are always complaining about the AI but then restart as soon as a game doesn't go precisely as planned.
    I had a game recently when I tried really hard to get a religion to do a religious victory but lost out by the narrowest of margins, it forced me to reconsider my whole game plan.
     
  7. kampori

    kampori Warlord

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    Yes, you're screwed and it sucks majorly. In my current game I lost Hanging Gardens, then Pyramids, then Oracle. Each by 1-2 turns. Now my capital has absolutely nothing of worth, and Ghandi has everything (yes he beat me to all 3). So out of venom and fury, I build 10 archers and 2 warriors, marched through the jungle and took my wonders back.

    In CiV you got a nice gold package for however much production you lost the wonder by. And in press release versions of this game as seen in Let's Plays, you could harvest the wonder you were building for production boost back. But alas, we have nothing. And it sucks
     
  8. Artifex1

    Artifex1 Warlord

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    I lost the wonder by 1 turn but decided to keep playing anyway without reloading from a save. I ended up capturing my continent defeating Cleo and Harald and in the process capturing the Oracle.

    Therefore I shall keep playing. :) I think I might be able to pull this one out.
     
  9. jasper

    jasper Warlord

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    i agree. what happens now is the player reloads and forces the ai to take the hit he wouldve had to deal with.

    a lot of these one turn too late scenerios are very impactful. getting the wonder vs notjing at all. getting to that good settling spot vs being late and havijg to travel to a new spot or worse having no other spots left.

    i wont say this is the reason the ai performs so poorly but it certainly doesnt help when the player can manipulate every close call in his or her favor.
     
    Karmah likes this.
  10. manu-fan

    manu-fan Emperor

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    Just don't go for early wonders. None of them are really worth it and Stonehenge is too risky. Just make sure you tech ahead and go for others as soon as they're available.
     
    Zuizgond likes this.
  11. bmrigs

    bmrigs Chieftain

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    The only one I strive for is the Oracle in the early game.
     
  12. Larsenex

    Larsenex King

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    Why? Because of the Great person point discount?
     
  13. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    Pyramids is the best early wonder....hands down. Think of how many builders you build in a given game, now take roughly 20% of the cost off that. I personally save scum the heck out of this game tho, especially getting beat to wonders :nono:... i am not proud of it :o
     
  14. bmrigs

    bmrigs Chieftain

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    Yep. Quick and easy way to get envoys and build up traders along with eureka's.
     
  15. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Think of it like this:
    Most things in civ pay back for themselves in about 15 to 20 turns*. That means an ROI rate of about 5% per turn.
    That is a sort of baseline. That is what you expect to get out of every investment and the rate at which you can effectively increase its cost in the future (similar to how irl we view the value of money in history with inflation correction for example or we consider a 1.000.000 building to cost something like 50k per year even if its done and payed for because else that million could produce profit elsewhere)

    So when investing 170 (substracted 50 for the free worker) production in early game, it is not enough to get back 170 production troughout your game. You need to get back about 8,5 production per turn to make it worth it. So after 100 turns, you need to have gotten back 850 production to make it worthwhile, meaning you need to have spent 4200 production on workers....

    For short: This is another wonder that is absolutely not worth it.

    *Some things a bit more somethings a bit less. I always look at this rate to see how worthy it is. I buy a worker for 50 in early game, i get 3 tile improvements worth 3 food/production. That is 16 turns payback or 6% ROI. reasonable. I pay 130 (production + food for the citizen) for a settler and get 3 production, 2 food and some science, culture, gold etc, thats usually a bit low, but it gives land, resources etc too, so its ok. I spend 200 production on an army that captures 3 cities with a total income of 15 shields, 10 food and other stuff. That makes more than 12% ROI already and on top of that i get land, resources, strategical/tactical advantages and the units are still alive ! That is totally unbelievably awesome. (And that is reality and shows why conquest is so grossly imbalanced and OP at the moment)

    For the wizards who are going to tell me its not this simple and the time between investment and the start of payback also matters: I am aware, but i think its complicated enough for now and i just want to give people a first pointer on how to think of civ economy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
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  16. CivScientist

    CivScientist Warlord

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    I think your mistake was building an early wonder. Even if you succeeded, would it be worth the opportunity cost? You could have spent that production building an army to capture cities and/or building holy sites. By the time you would have finished Stonehenge, how much extra faith would you have?

    I never liked the all or nothing mechanic with wonders anyway. For one, it's not realistic. I mean, the Aztecs were several turns late in building the pyramids in real life and they just redesigned them to be step shaped and built them anyway.
     
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  17. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    :lol:

    I wonder if either they or Egypt ever got any food or workers out of that pile of rocks though :mischief:
     
  18. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

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    Your arbitrary notion that something must have a return of 5% per turn of their production cost to be of value would have more merit if there wasn't an overwhelming number of production choices available in Civ6 that failed to even come close to this return.


    Workshop - 175p with a return of 2p but a secondary cost of 1g per turn so take off another 0.5p per turn as well giving a return of 0.857%
    Powerplant- - 525p with a return of 4p as well as a secondary cost of 2g per turn. However you you can stack this on other cities. It requires at least 6 cities coverage for every powerplant to "Break even"(26.75p / 4)- 1p or 1.6667

    Industrial Zone of course this depends on Adjacency bonus but has a base cost of 60p before tech increases. Lets say you beeline Apprenticeship and you manage to get a IZ for 75p. You will need a 4p adjacency and each IZ is only getting more expensive

    These are just the Production choices none which come close to your standards, neither through casual inspection do all the other Buildings/districts and what have you. Please tell me about "Most things" in Civ6 because i would bre surprised if there was any that gave a true 5% of its production cost per turn for its lifetime.

    Your misguided notion that Workers somehow get a return of greater than 5% is also wrong, you are forgetting the pop cost to actually work that tile. That is before increasing costs come into consideration . Your 1st Worker maybe 50p but your second is 54 your third 58... etc how many workers will you get out before they too dont come close to a 5% return. Your position that a Settler provides 5% return is shaky as well, not the least because you have failed to mention that the food cost also costs the city the tile yield that population was working. Sure you may time the Settler build so as the pop does not decrease but you are still losing the opportunity cost of that extra populations yield, not to mention the 0.7 Science, 0.3 culture and 1/3 of the district slot.

    Thinking that 200p will buy you an Army to take 3 Cities, is also optimistic at best. 200p gets you what 2 archers and 2 warriors, or maybe 3 Warriors and an Archer . Lets see how that translates as you get further in the game . Yo also fail to mention the sheer amount of time it take to return anything on investment, not to mention the risk of losing your investment with a return of nothing.

    The kicker is none of this refutes my statement that the Pyramids is the best Early Wonder hands down.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
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  19. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    The basic idea to look at ROI for your builds is sound, but you're application to the pyramids is far off. First of all, builders don't cost 50. By the time you're building the pyramids, it's more likely 70 or more. Last time I built pyramids a single builder was already worth >100 production. Second, you don't get one builder immediately, you get a boosted builder. If built pre-feudalism, this means 1.33 builders, if you have feudalism it's 1.2 builders. You can also time your builders in other cities so that they complete immediately after the pyramids are finished. This way you can easily get 2 builders worth of gain within the first couple of turns after the pyramids are done, which might mean immediate payback of the full price of the wonder.

    Measuring the value of a builder charge is hard, because they can be used for such a wide range of purposes. The best immediate value comes from chopping and harvesting. Having an extra build for a chop is worth a lot. For example to chop a rainforest in a freshly settled city. That single chop is often worth a dozen turns of a trade route, or more.
    This math is way off, because builders get more expensive. I'm looking now at numbers from my last game. Built Pyramids around T90, had Feudalism by then, a builder cost 102 production. The game ended exactly 100 turns later, by then a single builder cost 178 production. Since the pyramids completed I had built 19 builders for a total production cost of 2550. (Probably a bit less if I used the -30%/+2 charge policy in the late game.) Pyramids gave one free 6 charge builder and 19 more charges on the other builders. So to get the same amount of builder charges without pyramids, I need 5 more builders. The next 5 builders cost a total of 930 production. In other words, spending 2550 production on builders, plus the free builder, gave me an additional 930 production worth of builders. But the most important part is that most of those builders were made a lot earlier. Apart from 2 builders to plant forests around my spaceport, all other builders were built before turn 160. Most long before that. In a fast space game, the hardest part is usually to find time to build all the essential things before it's time to work on district project. Getting more builds for the same production helps a lot.

    I'm also interested in hearing what these "most things" are that pay back in 15-20 turns. Pretty much none of the buildings do. A fully packed IZ is probably the most efficient thing you can build, but that's still >20 turns, unless you have insane AoE coverage. Most things have very slow payback times, such as Markets and Stock Exchanges at >200 turns...

    My verdict for the Pyramids is that they are great. Sometimes they might be built by the AI very early, which is a shame, because investing into them very early is not worth it. Not compared to building units. If a nearby AI builds them early, then this AI is quite likely to have my units visiting their territory in the near future. If the mids are still available around t80 on deity, this usually means there are no strong desert capitals and you have a good chance at getting them, even if started late.
     
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  20. nitedemon

    nitedemon Warlord

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    On a slightly unrelated topic, I always DOW Ghandi and wipe him off the face of the earth if I see him, and better do it before he starts to produce those dam elephants ...

     

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