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Losing a Wonder Race

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Duuk, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Inlex

    Inlex Chieftain

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    I love this idea too. The only time I go for wonders is basically Hanging Gardens every game and the rest I only attempt if I am absolutely sure I will be the first. Usually the only way I gauge this is by seeing if I am leading in culture / science so I know I will be the frist to have the ability to attempt the wonder.

    This brings two significant problems to the table:
    1. Only building when ahead is kind of redundant, since you're ahead anyway it really takes the great moment out of the equation, since you just 'expect' to stay ahead anyway. As opposed to getting the joy of clawing back by getting a key wonder.
    2. The current way to keep track of wonder production abroad is horrendous. Espionage is garbage in my view and monitoring wonder construction purely based on vision is not an option in 80% of the games, nor is it ever safe to assume that the civs you can see are the only ones building that wonder.

    Building a wonder is too much of a shot in the dark to take on those risks. I think wonders failed pretty much this game and need a good overhaul.
     
  2. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Warlord

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    I feel that conquering another civ is more comparable to winning the Wonder race.

    The downside to military is of course the risk of losing the war and wasting production on dead units.
     
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  3. Kyro

    Kyro Chieftain

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    Except that given the great ease in retreat compared to Civ 5 and AI's incompetence in war there really isn't any risk associated with war.

    Unit is dying? Retreat past the river or climb up a hill and nobody can ever catch you because unlike you who took only 1 turn to ascend the hill your opponent needs 2 turns as non cavalry units can never move to your original position and attack you on the hill in the same turn. The next turn you're off the hill 2 hexes away when they have to use that same turn to climb the hill/cross the river.

    Unit dieing is very easy to avoid so long as you have good placement.

    The same ease cannot be said about winning a wonder race because there is nothing you can do to avoid the "death" of the production invested if you lose the wonder race. Further worsening the issue is the fact that AI gets up to 80% production boosts in Wonder Construction yet we do not see a similar edge in their combat abilities. +4 Combat Strength on Deity is nothing when they can never catch your dying units in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  4. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    Well, I never understood why a "great wonder" would give me faster workers anyway. They should obviously inspire your people. & awe the people of other nations. Great wonders should give you (lots of) era points, loyalty pressure, culture, secret policies & governments.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Apologies, one did not see this thread when one posted. The reimbursement is 50%.... as long as one knows one is being out-classed, have a look at Wonder 50% return
     
  6. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    But the assumption there is "know you're being outclassed". If there was a warning (I can't remember which civ version had the "is close to finishing <wonder>" warning), then it would be fine, change production and let it ride. As it is, it just disappears and since there is no queue, it's just lost.
     
  7. Ondolindë

    Ondolindë Chieftain

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    Civ V.
     
  8. evanaurora

    evanaurora Chieftain

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    That was a mod.

    I'm pretty sure that's never been in an unmodded version of civ... but I could be mistaken.
     
  9. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    May have been Call to Power 2. I distinctly remember it from one of them.
     
  10. Ondolindë

    Ondolindë Chieftain

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    Oh, I see you meant the actual unmodded game. Nope, no previous iteration of the game had that as well.
     
  11. Ogro

    Ogro Chieftain

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    I played all versions mostly without mods and I'm pretty sure there is one that warned you when the AI was about to finish a wonder.
     
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  12. Ondolindë

    Ondolindë Chieftain

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    I don’t recall one, but I can certainly be wrong with this one. Been playing since Civ III, but have never heard that mentioned from Civ I and II. I remember in Civ III you could figure out how much production and turns your rivals had building a Wonder and you could shift citizens around to get an advantage.
     
  13. Magil

    Magil Monarch

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    Really, the excess production shouldn't be lost just because the queue goes empty. It should just be jammed into the next thing you build anyway.
     
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  14. TomKQT

    TomKQT Chieftain

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    My opinion on some of the ideas:

    You can still complete the wonder and you get a lesser wonder

    This would IMHO be impossible to balance. Wonders are already not so great in Civ6 and you often skip a wonder because you don't want to waste a tile for it.
    So either you make the lesser wonders almost as good as the normal wonders - and then you would simply have too many wonders all over (you could possible have 6 Pyramids etc.), or you make the lesser wonders really lesser, and then it would be mostly useless to finish them...
    Plus you would need a separate graphics for all wonders, a lot of aditional content in the civilopedia, new mechanics - a lot of bug sources :)

    The wonder stays as unfinished and gives culture based on the completion %

    This is also related to some of the problems listed in the previous paragraph.
    What I would propably prefer is this idea (unfinished wonder staying on the tile), but it would not give you any special yields - it is not finished after all, it is not functional (you typically make the structure first, which could be nothing special, and at the end you add the decorations which would be the source of the "culture" - but unfinished museum for example is just a building with no cultural impact). You would be however able to remove the unfinished wonder with a builder charge and get production the same way as from a forest etc.
    This makes sense IMHO, because the charge represents the work needed to disassemble the building and the production bonus represents the fact that you can reuse some of the material. It would be usefull because you can reuse it on any future build, not just the very next one after the wonder, if some overflow was implemented properly.
     
  15. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    In the other thread, it was discussed that the code for builders includes as "reclaim unfinished wonder" action, so oddly this was originally Firaxis' plan, but for some reason it wasn't implemented.
     
  16. Roald Amundsen

    Roald Amundsen Chieftain

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    I think this was in both Civ1 and 2. At least one of them. Pretty sure it was in Civ2. You had 1 turn to rush-buy the wonder at that point.
     
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  17. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    That's the mechanic I was thinking of! The warning was like the 2-turn warning, so if you could rush-buy it you did, if you couldn't, you flipped to producing something else.
     
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  18. Roald Amundsen

    Roald Amundsen Chieftain

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    Lol! I remember calling them "floating wonders" huge piles of production that you had to take care of. If somebody finished the wonder you were producing and you didn't have a spare one to switch to, you lost all those shiney hammers! Starting preparing for the wonders you wanted Long before you had the aporopriate tech, and the moment you got the tech the wonder was finished in notime! :)
     
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  19. KayAU

    KayAU Chieftain

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    To be honest, I wasn't a huge fan of being able to just redirect the production. It doesn't make sense, for one thing, and it meant that once someone finished a wonder, you could suddenly get a cascade of other wonders finishing, as other civs switched their production over to whichever wonders were available.
     
  20. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    I preferred Civ4's approach of converting it to gold.

    With Civ6's mechanics, maybe a boost to culture would work? I'd have to run the numbers because :hammers: and :culture: are definitely not a 1:1 ratio.
     
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