Losing the Space Race

[WeirdoJoker]

Spain/Regent. Celts have 9 Ship parts, presumably working on Robotics in order to start work on the last part, which requires uranium and aluminum. I am 1 turn from Nuclear Power, and have 8 parts, so I'm 2 techs behind and cannot catch up. If I were to, say, nuke the Celts' 1-each of those resources, would those nukes destroy the entire squares' worth of improvements and cut it off long enough to delay producton to allow me to catch up? I don't believe I've used a nuke before, so I have no idea of the effects.

Basically what happened is I made an inadequate attempt at an 80K cultural victory, and so switch to the Space Race mid-game. That is what got me into this predicament ... only a few turns away from victory, but lagging only slightly. (Next game I'll have to go for a 100K just to try to do it right.)

 

[CKS]

It might give you enough time, especially if you have a prebuild for it. However, if you are going to nuke them, nuke the capital and then take it - make and break a right of passage if you need to. The spaceship will be destroyed, and they'll have to start over.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

It might give you enough time, especially if you have a prebuild for it. However, if you are going to nuke them, nuke the capital and then take it - make and break a right of passage if you need to. The spaceship will be destroyed, and they'll have to start over.

Wow ... that actually sounds really cool. Does merely nuking the capital destroy the Ship, or does the capital actually have to be taken?

 

[tjs282]

If I were to, say, nuke the Celts' 1-each of those resources, would those nukes destroy the entire squares' worth of improvements and cut it off long enough to delay producton to allow me to catch up? I don't believe I've used a nuke before, so I have no idea of the effects.

A nuke-detonation destroys all terrain-improvements, including roads, in the 3x3 area centred on the target-tile. It also pollutes all land-tiles in that radius, and instantly degrades them by 1 step, per the 'Pollution-effects' settings in the editor (i.e. Jungle/Forest [–> Grass] -> Plains -> Desert).

So yes, nuking their (Spaceship-part) resources would cut their access to them, but that won't help you if they've already finished the tech and started building the part (since the resource(s) is only needed to begin a build, not to complete it).

As you might expect, the other damage done by a Nuke is also pretty severe: IIRC, a Nuke's B-value [=99?] is applied as if it were an A-value, against the D-value of every unit and building in the 3x3 radius: so all D=0 units will die instantly, and most/all of the D>0 units will die as well (MechInf or ModArm may occasionally survive a first strike, but likely with only 1 HP remaining); and half the population/ buildings in a nuked town will be destroyed.

Wow ... that actually sounds really cool. Does merely nuking the capital destroy the Ship, or does the capital actually have to be taken?

To destroy the ship, you have to take the capital, otherwise 'all' your Nuke will do (in addition to the effects described above!) is cut it off from their trade-net.

While this would be sufficient to stop Brennus from building the last ship-part in his capital, and might cause disorder there (from the loss of Luxes/ Happy-buildings), (1) it won't stop Brennus from completing his last ship-part somewhere else (and launching his ship), and (2) only one road would need to be rebuilt to reconnect the capital anyway.

If you can't reach his capital in time, then to ensure that he could not research/ build his last Ship-part quicker than you can, you would have to nuke (and hence cut off the resource supply to) all his core-cities, not just his capital.

It should be pointed out here, though, that Nukes themselves are immune to Nuke-blasts, so glassing his core-towns won't destroy any Nukes that he has already built. So if you fire yours, you will then have to deal with the effects of all the Nukes which he will throw at your towns in MAD-retaliation.

So is there really no possibility of tech-trading to catch up with the Celts?

Or winning by the UN-vote? (Or are you still playing with that VC switched off?)

 

[justanick]

Wow ... that actually sounds really cool. Does merely nuking the capital destroy the Ship, or does the capital actually have to be taken?

The city has to be taken, but it is the city with the apollo program that counts for the spaceship parts.

https://wiki.civforum.de/wiki/Apolloprogramm_(Civ3)

As you might expect, the other damage done by a Nuke is also pretty severe: IIRC, a Nuke's B-value [=99?] is applied as if it were an A-value,

Is there evidence to that? Because it contradicts my observations on the issue.

Atomwaffen sind immun gegen Atomwaffen. Alle anderen Einheiten werden mit eine Chance von 2:1 vernichtet, die überlebenden Einheiten verlieren 2 HP. Einheiten ohne HP, mit einem HP oder mit zwei HP werden mit Sicherheit vernichtet. Gebäude werden mit 50% Wahrscheinlichkeit vernichtet. 50% aller Einwohner werden vernichtet, bei den übrigen Einwohner wird aufgerundet.

https://www.civforum.de/showthread.php?86307-Bombardierung-von-St%E4dten-in-C3C-1-22


I probably should translate that and publish it under say strategy articles.

 

[tjs282]

I probably should translate that and publish it under say strategy articles.

That would probably be helpful! I did a thread-search on CFC, but no single post that I found listed the exact effects of a nuclear attack.

Given that the highest D-value units generally seem to have the greatest probability of surviving a nuclear attack, it seemed like a reasonable assumption that the 'Nuclear-weapon' flag would cause the B-value to be applied slightly differently compared to a non-nuclear bombardment-unit. If a 'nuclear' B-value had no application at all, then it wouldn't be needed — but now that I think about it, I can't actually remember if the epic-game Nukes do have a B-value...?

(I may well be having a moment and confusing Civ3 with CivDOS — which didn't have B-values at all, and where ICBMs had an A-value of 99, and doomstacks could be one-shot killed if their top defender died...)

 

[WeirdoJoker]

To destroy the ship, you have to take the capital, otherwise 'all' your Nuke will do (in addition to the effects described above!) is cut it off from their trade-net.

Ok. I didn't expect any more than that. I was just thinking it might be long enough for me to get caught up and make a final run for it. And it might ... I'm one tech behind - 1 turn away from Nuclear Power, where they have Laser (and have completed the party lounge) and are (presumably) working on Robotics - so given the necessary rebuild time even for one resource, let alone if I nuked two, might make all the difference I need.

While this would be sufficient to stop Brennus from building the last ship-part in his capital, and might cause disorder there (from the loss of Luxes/ Happy-buildings), (1) it won't stop Brennus from completing his last ship-part somewhere else (and launching his ship), and (2) only one road would need to be rebuilt to reconnect the capital anyway.

Right, that's why I was thinking I need to nuke at least one of the resources ASAP ... only a couple turns before he finishes Robotics. (I also don't have enough gold to sabotage production ... this has not been a high-gold game.)

If you can't reach his capital in time, then to ensure that he could not research/ build his last Ship-part quicker than you can, you would have to nuke (and hence cut off the resource supply to) all his core-cities, not just his capital.

I am concerned about not being able to reach the capital in time. He's about 1/3 of the world away, and ships have travel time. (I know, I didn't plan this out well, but this is a new approach to victory I've never tried before.) I'm considering that maybe I send my ships now (I have a carrier on the way along with protective battleships, but the troops will take a while longer), then I nuke the resources and start working on a ground-troop invasion to get the capital. Of course, the game may not last that long...

It should be pointed out here, though, that Nukes themselves are immune to Nuke-blasts, so glassing his core-towns won't destroy any Nukes that he has already built. So if you fire yours, you will then have to deal with the effects of all the Nukes which he will throw at your towns in MAD-retaliation.

Yeah, definitely a concern, since they almost certainly have ICBMs built.

So is there really no possibility of tech-trading to catch up with the Celts?

I wish. I have nothing to trade them. My last resource they want is Furs, but I have none left, and it might not be enough to trade for the Laser anyway (next turn, after I get Nuclear Power.

Or winning by the UN-vote? (Or are you still playing with that VC switched off?)

That VC is switched on - I no longer switch it off - and I have the UN (got an SGL and saved him for that purpose ... I hated that one time I got sandbagged), but am not confident of a win ... Brennus would probably win, as his score is much higher; I have a "past" with the Mayans, and the Americans I would have to gift stuff to make happy (though I could certainly do it). (Celts wiped out Egypt early, and I wiped out the Arabs in the early Industrial.) I (think I) would need to: 1) give gifts to the Mayans & Americans to make them more supportive; and 2) find a way to push for a vote before Celts finish Robotics.

Aargh. Stuff to think about while I've been in & out of court the last couple weeks & busier than heck ... but the strategy (in-court and in-game) is at least keeping my brain stimulated.

 

[tjs282]

My last resource they want is Furs, but I have none left,

You are allowed to trade away your last instance of any resource, if you choose to. If you currently have access to all 8 Luxes (and Markets to boost their effects), then your citizens likely wouldn't miss those Furs. (Though, as you say, they might not be enough for the tech.)

Similarly, the Indians don't need Horses or Iron to build WarEllies, so (although the AI never would) a canny human could 'safely' sell off all instances of those resource-types under their control, for the entire period between getting Chivalry and getting MilTrad (unless they're playing disconnect-reconnect at high levels); and the Japanese could likewise sell all their Horses once Samurai are available to build.

am not confident of a win ... Brennus would probably win, as his score is much higher;

Score is only relevant to the Histo-VC. For the Diplo-VC, pretty much the only thing that matters are the AI-Civs' relative Attitudes (Gracious Polite, Cautious, Annoyed, or Furious) to each other (and the human, obviously!).

An AI-Civ will not vote for a candidate unless they are at least Polite towards that candidate (and Gracious is preferable).

1) give gifts to the Mayans & Americans to make them more supportive;

Unless they're irretrievably Furious at you (e.g. because you've razed too many [of their] towns), then signing an ROP (if you're larger than they are) might be enough on its own to sway them to Cautious/Polite — but if they can reach your capital by rail, don't make the same mistake as me (once!), and leave it unguarded (bloody Aztecs!).

And if you also gift them a tech(s) and/or other goodie(s), and/or sign an MPP (especially if they're Weak compared to you), then Gracious is pretty much guaranteed (for a couple of turns, at least!). You can sign these deals one at a time, see if/how their Attitude changes, then decide whether you want/need to take it to the next level (presumably neither are eligible for the UN-Sec themselves?).

Then when the election comes up, with 2 AI's in your pocket, you should be pretty much a shoo-in — and if they're currently at war with the Celts, so much the better (since they will always be Furious with — and hence never vote for — a current enemy). Sure, winning like that is kinda cheesy, but all's fair in love and war...

 

[WeirdoJoker]

You are allowed to trade away your last instance of any resource, if you choose to. If you currently have access to all 8 Luxes (and Markets to boost their effects), then your citizens likely wouldn't miss those Furs. (Though, as you say, they might not be enough for the tech.)

I only have 5 Luxes ... Celts have 2, Mayans have 1, but I can't afford them (I think ... I could check). With 1 turn to Nuclear Power, though, Celts won't trade it for Furs, so I may have to throw in some cash to get the Laser (if anything at all will work).

Score is only relevant to the Histo-VC. For the Diplo-VC, pretty much the only thing that counts is the AI-Civ's relative Attitudes (Gracious Polite, Cautious, Annoyed, Furious) to each other (and the human, obviously!).

AI-Civs will not vote for a candidate unless they are at least Polite towards that candidate (and Gracious is preferable).Unless they're irretrievably Furious at you (e.g. because you've razed too many [of their] towns), then signing an ROP (if you're larger than they are) might be enough on its own to sway them to Cautious/Polite (but don't leave your cap ungaurded if they can reach it by rail!).

And if you also gift them a tech(s) and/or other goodie(s), and/or sign an MPP (especially if they're Weak compared to you), then Gracious is pretty much guaranteed (for a couple of turns, at least!). You can sign these deals one at a time, see if/how their Attitude changes, then decide whether you want/need to take it to the next level.

Then when the election comes up, with 2 AI's in your pocket (presumably neither are eligible for the UN-Sec themselves?), you should be pretty much a shoo-in (and if they're currently at war with the Celts, so much the better, since they will always be Furious with — and hence never vote for — someone they're fighting).

Sure, winning like that is kinda cheesy, but all's fair in love and war...

Ok, that was some stuff I hadn't thought of. Celts & Mayans are Polite, Americans cautious (though that's easy to fix - they're really behind). Is there any criteria for getting a UN vote, or is it pretty much random?

 

[tjs282]

I only have 5 Luxes ... Celts have 2, Mayans have 1, but I can't afford them (I think ... I could check). With 1 turn to Nuclear Power, though, Celts won't trade it for Furs, so I may have to throw in some cash to get the Laser (if anything at all will work).

If you're planning to buy the last tech(s) anyway, then you won't need high SCI%-spending (or Geek-Specialists).

So once Nuclear Power comes in, set SCI% to zero (and change all currently assigned Specialists to Taxmen on the fringes, or Policemen in the core), and see how much GPT that gets you. Because even if you can't afford the price up front, you might still be able to buy it on the installment-plan (if you haven't already busted your trade-reputation?).

And once you have the tech (I'm assuming you already have some TacNuke-prebuilds going?), you can finish your ship and blast off.

Ok, that was some stuff I hadn't thought of. Celts & Mayans are Polite, Americans cautious (though that's easy to fix - they're really behind). Is there any criteria for getting a UN vote, or is it pretty much random?

If you mean, "When will the AI-Civs vote for me?", then they need to be Polite/Gracious towards you, and more favourably inclined towards you than your electoral opponent — which is why (provoking) an ongoing war against him may be... erm... helpful ("Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...").

If you mean, "When do the elections happen?", then the answer is "Every 11 turns after the UN is built" — and if you can't remember exactly which year that was, check the Wonder-page (F7).

(And before you ask: no, I don't know why the Firaxis-guys picked that specific electoral period — maybe they just liked prime numbers!)

 

[WeirdoJoker]

If you're planning to buy the last tech(s) anyway, then you won't need high SCI%-spending (or Geek-Specialists).

Only problem with that is only Celts have laser, and no one has robotics yet. If I were in their position, I wouldn't sell it (though the AI might).

And once you have the tech (I'm assuming you already have some TacNuke-prebuilds going?), you can finish your ship and blast off.

I have two TacNukes in submarines already. One close enough to destroy the uranium square, and the other on its way toward the aluminum square. (I haven't played a turn since this exchange started ... I want my plan to be both fool-proof and genius-proof.)

If you mean, "When will the AI-Civs vote for me?", then they need to be Polite/Gracious towards you, and more favourably inclined towards you than your electoral opponent — which is why (provoking) an ongoing war against him may be... erm... helpful ("Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...").

Yes, a nod is as good as wink to a blind bat. Seriously, though ... are you suggesting I set up MPPs with the other AI Civs and then make war on the Celts before a UN election? That would seem to make sense.

If you mean, "When do the elections happen?", then the answer is "Every 11 turns after the UN is built" — and if you can't remember exactly which year that was, check the Wonder-page (F7).

(And before you ask: no, I don't know why the Firaxis-guys picked that specific electoral period — maybe they just liked prime numbers!)

Yes, I meant when do they happen. Every 11 turns is indeed bizarre, but at least it's a prime palindrome.

 

[tjs282]

If I were in their position, I wouldn't sell it (though the AI might).

The applicable mantra here is:

I am smart, teh AI r dummmm
I am smart, teh AI r dummmm
I am smart, teh AI r dummmm...

Yes, a nod is as good as wink to a blind bat. Seriously, though ... are you suggesting I set up MPPs with the other AI Civs and then make war on the Celts before a UN election? That would seem to make sense.

Yeah, that works.

If the Celts are already fighting the Mayans and/or the Americans when the MPPs are signed, that works even better, because then you don't even have to feel like the bad guy for starting the war -- but nor are you under any real obligation to send any troops to help defend your 'allies'.

You didn't think the MPP actually meant anything, did you...?

 

[WeirdoJoker]

The applicable mantra here is:

I am smart, teh AI r dummmm
I am smart, teh AI r dummmm
I am smart, teh AI r dummmm...

LOL ... point taken.

 

[Lanzelot]

If you mean, "When will the AI-Civs vote for me?", then they need to be Polite/Gracious towards you, and more favourably inclined towards you than your electoral opponent — which is why (provoking) an ongoing war against him may be... erm... helpful ("Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...").

If you mean, "When do the elections happen?", then the answer is "Every 11 turns after the UN is built" — and if you can't remember exactly which year that was, check the Wonder-page (F7).

In general, this is a fool-proof guaranteed way for UN victory: declare war on your electoral opponent the turn before the election, sign MAs against him with the rest of the world (which will at the same time make those at least polite...!) and then hit enter --> victory guaranteed. Note that MPPs are no good for this, as they may take a while, before they get triggered. (Your opponent has to attack one of your units or cities, before your MPP partners declare on him!)

However, there is one catch: in rare occasions there may not be your electoral opponent, there may be several of them...! Every nation with at least >25% pop or >25% territory will become a candidate in the election! So in theory, there could be up to 7 candidates in the election: 3 that have >25% pop, 3 that have >25% territory and the one that built the UN! (See my test map, that illustrates this situation: GOTM 154 India Monarch Diplomatic - Final Spoiler - Game Submitted)

It is pretty hard to predict, who will vote for whom in such a situation... It may become impossible to get the required majority, as every candidate votes for himself and some of the others may abstain.

 

[justanick]

In general, this is a fool-proof guaranteed way for UN victory: declare war on your electoral opponent the turn before the election, sign MAs against him with the rest of the world (which will at the same time make those at least polite...!) and then hit enter --> victory guaranteed.

To be on the safe side one should also destroy about 10 units of the now common enemy, enter a MPP and RoP. This may make your allies gracious.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ai-attitude.44999/

Except in this few situations like this MPP should be avoided.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

To be on the safe side one should also destroy about 10 units of the now common enemy, enter a MPP and RoP. This may make your allies gracious.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ai-attitude.44999/

Except in this few situations like this MPP should be avoided.

Yes, I normally reject requests for a MPP. But I think I might be in an MPP situation. I'm still deciding whether to go for the UN victory, or to try for the Spaceship. It's a last-minute thing, and the UN thing may not work if I have to wait another 11 turns for a vote (Celts might finish their Ship before that).

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Follow-up and results:

Decided to go for the Diplomatic victory rather than finish the Spaceship while behind on tech. So, I got MPP with America & Mayans. DoW Celts, almost destroyed their aluminum and nuked their uranium. The others DoW Celts. Celts nuked several of my cities (and my capital several times ... pop went from 15 to 3 very quickly). That same turn ended with a UN vote (I calculated it out and realized it would be this turn), which I won 3-1. Considering the last time I played Spain I lost a UN vote (that I was not a candidate for anyway), this particular victory feels really good.

This was the first time I actually deliberately went for a UN vote, and only my second victory (with 3 UN defeats under my belt). Thanks for all the good advice, fellow Civ3-ers.

 

[CKS]

The city has to be taken, but it is the city with the apollo program that counts for the spaceship parts.

https://wiki.civforum.de/wiki/Apolloprogramm_(Civ3)

Taking the city with the Apollo program may work, but destroying the capital does destroy the spaceship. This week I ran the unhappy situation where an opponent started the last spaceship part while I was only a few turns from a 20K victory and about 10 turns from learning the last tech for a spaceship. The capital did not have the Apollo program, and I didn't know where it was built (I didn't have enough gold to investigate all the reasonable possibilities). I had no choice but to declare war and see what happened. Arathorn said it would work, so I was hoping he was correct. Taking the capital did destroy the spaceship and I managed to squeak out my win.

 

[Lanzelot]

but destroying the capital does destroy the spaceship.

I think you don't need to destroy it -- taking it should suffice.

 

[CKS]

Well, yes, I expect so. However, I had no interest in keeping the city, so I left it in ruins. My point was that the capital was the city that worked, I didn't need to find the city with the Apollo program.