lost tech lead, something ain't right

[sumthinelse]

I loaded a 1.17f game, Version 1.21f, regent, I had a tech lead of 4 advances, including 2 middle age advances. There were 16 civs in the game. The civ in
second place had The Great Library but no other known civ had my techs. I suspected that in fact no other civ
would be able to keep up and so The Great Library would not allow the 2nd place civ to catch up, because I had
done really well getting techs from goodie huts (I had scouts). A few turns later, nevertheless, the civ that had been
in 2nd place was a tech ahead.

I suspected the AI was cheating. The 2nd place civ did not have enough money to steal my techs, and its science
beaker output was slightly less than mine. I changed the .bic file to allow transports with 100 moves and reloaded

the version 1.17f game. This was necessary because once you save a game in 1.21f .bic changes don't work for that
game. So I used the 100 move trasnsports to find all the unknown civs, and, sure enough, they were all far behind
in techs. So there was no way that another civ could have known about my advances.

Possibilities:

The AI was cheating.

There is a bug that allows the Great Library to get all techs owned by 1 civ, like when the 1 civ is human.

There is a bug such that AI civs get a better tech advance rate than the human.

There is a bug such that the cost of the AI stealing techs is lower than advertised.

Those are all the possibilities I can think of.....

 

[Jaygatz]

One thing you have to keep in mind -- Once you discover a Tech, it becomes cheeper for all other civs to reaserch it.

For example, (and if I remeber the formula correctly):
If a tech costs 40, and there are 8 civs, after the first civ discovers it, it costs 7/8th the original cost or 35, after the 2ed civ discovers it, it costs 30.

So, a civ that is behind you and producing fewer beakers can catch up, but never pass you.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Jaygatz
One thing you have to keep in mind -- Once you discover a Tech, it becomes cheeper for all other civs to reaserch it.

For example, (and if I remeber the formula correctly):
If a tech costs 40, and there are 8 civs, after the first civ discovers it, it costs 7/8th the original cost or 35, after the 2ed civ discovers it, it costs 30.

So, a civ that is behind you and producing fewer beakers can catch up, but never pass you.

Thanks for the idea. That would make my 2 middle age techs cost 1/16 or 6% less for the 2nd civ to research, so I still don't have a satisfactory explanation of what happened.

 

[D. Boon's Ghost]

It may have just been a glitch in the converting over to 1.21.
In my first game, switching over from 1.17, my civ was in the ending stage of anarchy (I had been in the process of switching governments when I saved the 1.17 game) and yet for the remaining three turns of my 'social unrest', I was able to finish up the research of a tech.
Very odd.

I had never before researched, much less completed a tech, during anarchy.

The only thing I could think of was that the switch over between versions somehow messed with some of that games particular info.

 

[Jaygatz]

Actually, I just remembered that they changed the costs of some techs between 1.17 and 1.21.

Check out the sticky thread: Patch 1.21f civ3mod.bic changes from 1.17 and see if the techs that you guys experienced this wierdness with were among the techs they did a price change on.

Although, most techs seem to be more expensive, as well as the tech rate for each map size seems to have gone up, so I guess we may still not have an explaination. Unless, this change triggered the bug that D. Boon's Ghost eluded to.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by D. Boon's Ghost
It may have just been a glitch in the converting over to 1.21.


The only thing I could think of was that the switch over between versions somehow messed with some of that games particular info.

You may be on to something there. The research rates for world sizes changed as well. All the civs are researching different things, or maybe the same thing starting at different times. Who knows whether the software got confused about the new and old costs, tech rates of worlds, etc.

 

[konigstiger]

Have you considered embassies ? Civs can steal tech from you.

 

[damunzy]

I was severly behind the tech race, about 10-15 techs behind in a Monarch game. I missed building TGL by a turn or 2 and I thought the game was over. I kept playing and eventually took over TGL and received 10+ techs....including ones past Education (which renders TGL obsolete). The game even said that Education renders TGL obsolete and then gave me 5+ more techs...all the way up to Democracy.

Is it possible that it really only takes one civ having tech for the owner of TGL to get the tech?
Maybe science is badly broken but it never comes out b/c the game doesn't show hard numbers (the numbers change when more and more civs know the tech.....that would mean we could never track whether the game is working correctly b/c we don't know for sure all the techs an A.I. has unless we are close in techs to them).

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by konigstiger
Have you considered embassies ? Civs can steal tech from you.

The civ that caught up didn't have enough money to steal (unless the cost of stealing is broken).

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

sumthinelse, I guess this is a 1.17-1.21 switch thing. But you aren`t the first to report strange events of being overtaken by AI - my guess is that the positive effects of Republic via Monrachy are broken and now Republics are a lot faster in research than Monarchies.... Could this have something to do with your case?????

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer
sumthinelse, I guess this is a 1.17-1.21 switch thing. But you aren`t the first to report strange events of being overtaken by AI - my guess is that the positive effects of Republic via Monrachy are broken and now Republics are a lot faster in research than Monarchies.... Could this have something to do with your case?????

That may be part of the story too.

 

[Akka]

I have not made an extensive research about it, and I may be wrong, but I have the feeling that AI has good bonuses in research.
I always wondered how, when the game goes toward its end, the enemies are able to keep pace, technology speaking, and stay only 2-3 tech behind, while my civ is as big alone as all of the others combined, and each one of my cities are fully upgraded while half of the AI's ones lack basic science buildings and are less populated.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Akka
I have not made an extensive research about it, and I may be wrong, but I have the feeling that AI has good bonuses in research.
I always wondered how, when the game goes toward its end, the enemies are able to keep pace, technology speaking, and stay only 2-3 tech behind, while my civ is as big alone as all of the others combined, and each one of my cities are fully upgraded while half of the AI's ones lack basic science buildings and are less populated.

Second!

There`s quite a few ways (techs get cheaper, trading and so on) but it is very strange how it always acts out for the AIs....

and, so much for trading: I control 70% land and have 70% of cities. 1 AI left - and he researches as fast as I am all other things being equal.... I want see-map-chaet back!

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer


I want see-map-chaet back!

Amen.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse


Amen.

I guess they took it out so wew wouldn`t see what *else* was changed in 1.21.....

 

[chiefpaco]

Hmmm. Stumped me. Could the civ have been equally lucky with their goody huts? Were they an expansionist civ?

I think a good test would be to load back 1.17 & see if the same thing happens. I don't suspect any changes in 1.21 would change your situation, but I could be wrong. Miraculous tech comebacks made by the AI have been around before 1.21.

You're also playing Regent, which makes it more difficult to understand. On Monarch & above, the AI's production bonus applies to tech as well, meaning it takes less time for them to research. It can be significant. On Emporer, for example, an 80% production bonus means that the AI can discover new advances up to 8 turns before the human, with equal science funding.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by chiefpaco
Hmmm. Stumped me. Could the civ have been equally lucky with their goody huts? Were they an expansionist civ?

I think a good test would be to load back 1.17 & see if the same thing happens. I don't suspect any changes in 1.21 would change your situation, but I could be wrong. Miraculous tech comebacks made by the AI have been around before 1.21.

You're also playing Regent, which makes it more difficult to understand. On Monarch & above, the AI's production bonus applies to tech as well, meaning it takes less time for them to research. It can be significant. On Emporer, for example, an 80% production bonus means that the AI can discover new advances up to 8 turns before the human, with equal science funding.

I solved my problem by loading a different 1.17f game (I mean, same game, different save file). I guess some 1.17->1.21 transitions can be tricky! Also, I made sure I built the great library. I didn't need it but it helped keep the other civ from performing undocumented miracles.