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LotR27 Science-Scorning Spacists

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Arathorn, Dec 8, 2009.

  1. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    LotR27 Science-Scorning Spacists
    Difficulty Level: Emperor (or Monarch if everybody else is as out-of-shape as I am)
    Map size: Standard
    Map: Leaning towards custom continents (3) with low water
    Civ and Leader: Huayna Capac of the Incas
    Traits: Financial and Industrious
    Game Speed: Standard
    Most other things: Default settings
    Opponents: Mansa Musa, Hannibal, Victoria, Catherine, Joao II, Pericles
    Win Condition(s): All enabled – our win target is space – anything else is a loss
    Variant: Science-scorning*

    * -- Science-scorning has a few rules
    1. We may never build any science-boosting building (no library, observatory, university, monasteries, laboratory, academy, Oxford, etc.)
    2. We may never be in Representation (so no science-boosted specialists)
    3. We may not build any wonder which gives scientist GPPs (University of Sankore, Great Library, Space Elevator, National Park, Oxford University, Red Cross)
    4. We may not build Research
    5. We try to avoid using scientists at any point

    General guideline for victory:
    Espionage! (see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252496)
    Trading!
    Out-produce AIs on the final few parts (without space elevator or laboratories, too)
    Diplomacy to keep the AIs from killing each other until they research all the techs we need to launch

    Roster:
    Arathorn -- playing now
    ZPV
    Methos
    Rex Tyrannus
    Ozbenno



    Thoughts? No sense exploring with the quecha before making a settling decision.
     

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  2. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Checking in. Very fishy start! Settling in place seems OK.

    Two other ways we can get ahead in this game (and with this start) are trade routes and Great People. A coastal start means we can think about Great Lighthouse and then Free Market later to max our income from trade routes. We can also concentrate on merchant GPPs, use them for trade missions and even bulbing or Golden Ages. The higher we can keep our science slider (or espionage slider) the better we will go, so merchants might make sense.

    Are we able to unleash the quechas on an unsuspecting neighbour :mischief:
     
  3. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    Checking in. Settle in place--fishy are yummy. Quecha-death to all.
     
  4. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Checking in. I agree with settling in place. Can't recall what HC starts with, so not sure how to progress just yet. Since/If we're going the espionage route this could make an excellent Great Spy factory.
     
  5. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Tech path? I agree settling in place seems like a no-brainer.

    Fishing semi-obviously has to come first, but there are a couple side issues to consider.

    Great spies will be very powerful and so we may well want the Great Wall. Too bad that marble isn't stone. That argues for Masonry.

    Holy cities also interact nicely with espionage. If we can snag a religion (and we're the only ones to start with Mysticism), we can get a nice 25% (I think) discount on our espionage rates (once we spread that religion to the target city). Masonry would lead to Judaism, which we could still probably get, even if we do Fishing first.

    Fishing (while building a quechua) and then switch to work boats and then Mining, Masonry and try to found Judaism? No, that won't work, we need Polytheism first. Well, if one religion is good, two is better, right? Fishing to Polytheism to Mining to Masonry to Monotheism? Not that I'll get that far, of course. While building mainly fishing boats?

    Do we want to try ToA in our capital? Or should I just build boats for now and we can worry about worker and such later? I'll probably play 30. Inputs appreciated!
     
  6. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    HC starts with Mysticism and Agriculture (the latter of which isn't too useful).

    I suppose we could try a Stonehenge run, starting immediately. Both great prophets (for shrines) and great spy points could be good. But I think quechua still makes more sense, personally.
     
  7. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Start with a quecha I think (and then some more if we have a near neighbour). Fishing makes sense first with all those food stuffs, then Poly and then Mining and Masonry. I'd consider a detour to Sailing before Mono as well. With marble, Oracle seems to make some sense as well (if we nabbed Metal Casing we could build Colossus which goes well with being financial 4g on the sea tiles).

    We don't need a worker until we have Masonry or Animal Husbandry.
     
  8. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    So, Ozzy, you're talking Fishing->Polytheism->Mining->Masonry and then hoping to be the first to Monotheism and landing Judaism? Seems a bit of a stretch to me.
     
  9. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    If no-one else starts with Mysticism, then they all need to get Myst, Poly, Mining (they may have this) and Masonry themselves to be in a position to get Mono before us which seems more of a stretch. ;)
     
  10. ZPV

    ZPV Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

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    Checking in.
    Settling in place makes the most sense to me - we don't appear to gain anything by moving.
    I agree, Fishing first. There is the question of researching it in 5t working the fish, or 6t working the cow. The latter gains us 4 hammers for the build after the WB, but loses a turn on research. With the run at Polytheism, IMO the beakers are more important, but the MM is tight (4t fish, then 4t cow, then 1t forest, then max hammers. :crazyeye: Since we will already have food in the box, growing before going all out on the WB should be best).

    Another option after the initial WB is to go for a fast settler, to settle close by, where it could share the seafood with Cuzco, and provide a large boost in the early game. There's no sense in building a worker, though, before we have Animal Husbandry or Bronze Working, or some other improvable tile.
     
  11. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Our thin isthmus continues to be thin for a long ways north.

    Fishing came in before I could pop a hut to our north, which gave me sailing. Woohoo! Free tech. Quechua got delayed many times for work boat after work boat. I emphasized commerce and food, so Cuzco is pretty large.



    The darn bear in the north blocked my access to the hut until Pericles beat me to it. Our quechua finally go to a jungle hill and won on defense.

    Then, in 3320 BC, we learned Polytheism and founded Hinduism (Buddhism fell earlier). I then picked up Mining before Masonry (second religion not quite as critical, though two shrines in one city is really nice). Just started on Monotheism but basically no beakers invested yet.

    Mining isn't 100% required for Masonry, but it helps provide beakers, so it doesn't cost too much to pick up before. If we'd've missed on Hinduism, I'd've skipped Mining to get to Monotheism faster.

    Our capital:



    Lots of food/hammer tradeoffs possible. I'm thinking after we grow one more time, we should probably pop out a worker or two and then a settler (though another quechua or two will also be necessary eventually).

    Scouting has been limited and we've found nothing too interesting, though we have no visibility into bronze or iron or horses, so that's not too surprising.

    Roster:
    Arathorn -- just played
    ZPV -- UP NOW (20)
    Methos -- on deck (15)
    Rex Tyrannus
    Ozbenno

    Arathorn
     

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  12. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain Supporter

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    Lurk mode = on

    Will be watching with interest. I suspect as the later game arrives the variant will really start to sting.
     
  13. ZPV

    ZPV Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

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    Got it.
    IMO, we should work out, what our general strategy will be, so we can make these early-game decisions in an informed way. I'll post again in a couple of hours when I've had a chance to think.
     
  14. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    That's the goal/plan, yes. Even with years away, I hope to always have challenging/interesting variants up my sleeve. Here, we have to keep the AIs strong enough to do research, at peace enough to research, but weak enough they can't launch. Maybe we'll end by nuking everybody into the stone age, I dunno.

    Game notes:
    I did not revolt into Hinduism. We didn't need the happy or the diplo headache. Plus, a turn of anarchy while racing for techs didn't seem wise.

    Future directions:
    My plan as I played the first turnset was to do a hybrid religion/espionage economy for most of the game. Get a couple shrines in our capital, run cottages for espionage, build a few mega-production cities, and win from there, playing the diplo game as necessary. Depending on our continent, maybe conquer a foe or two to some degree (maybe not).

    Certainly other options exist. We can run 100% science and build wealth (and may need/want to do that to get a critical tech or two, even without any science-producing buildings, but that was not my intent of the way to play the game. That said, being creative and winning and experimenting are all important in my book, so I'm fine going that route some, too.)

    We are not committed to Monotheism and a run on Judaism. One holy city is really handy for espionage. A second in the same city is more of an econ play (one that I like -- two shrines plus money buildings can support a large empire, even with lots of corporations). Were I playing solo, I would probably try for Judaism (Monotheism) and then go bronze working and priesthood to try to chop/whip both 'Henge and Oracle (taking Metal Casting) with a possible AH detour. Settle a bit up and explore and then build many cities with cash support from shrine(s). I'd get into OR and either religion fairly quickly to help with the wonders and forges (and granaries, once we finally get there).

    I did minimal exploring but that's no excuse for not posting a map of what I did find. :( Sorry. I doubt we'll get a city founded next turnset anyway and by then we should have a better feel of the lay of the land.

    Arathorn
     
  15. ZPV

    ZPV Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

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    OK, first things first. Well played, Arathorn. :)

    Now, I have to ask, just how much do we really want Monotheism? If it's for role-play or some similar reason, then fine. Otherwise, Bronze Working will march in with a giant red veto stamp.

    Why? We have almost no production at the moment, but we do have a lot of food, and some forests. Converting these into production will be crucial to expanding our empire at a reasonable rate.

    After that, I guess AH and Pottery (for terraces) will be needed, but Writing is quite devalued. Alphabet will be a future priority, since it unlocks spies, but we aren't ready for that just yet. We can/should convert to EE after we have set up an empire; not before. Religion and spies won't get us the settlers we need to build religion and spies. :mischief:

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Land: We are at the end of what looks like a very long and twisted peninsula. This might make expansion difficult, or force us onto the islands to our east and south.
    The biggest risk, I guess, is being boxed in where we can't acquire military resources.
    I think the solution is not a single, distant city to block the entire area from the AIs, but instead to work for a strong steady Settler supply. (oh, I couldn't resist the alliteration :lol:) Our economy won't tank, since we are financial, and there is a lot of seafood.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wonders: I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here - it's nice to say we'd like this wonder or that wonder, but not many will be game-changingly useful, and we have the production to build precisely none of them at the moment. An Oracle slingshot will be nice, and is also cheap due to the marble, but IMO basing our gameplan around it is a bad idea, since early science is not the bottleneck in this game.
    Looking at the map, if there is one wonder we want to build, it is The Great Lighthouse. All of our immediate cities will be coastal, so the effect will be very large, and will last for a long time.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    AIs: we know who they are already, and I can tell you we have two clunkers in Pericles and Mansa Musa. :eek:
    Those two are almost guaranteed to turn off research in either the industrial or the modern age, to pursue a cultural victory. I guess that will present additional challenge in the late game. :D
     
  16. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Hard to screw up too much this early. :p

    I'm probably overfond of religions. It could be good, but a giant veto stamp is 100% fine by me. I think I'd shoot for it, but I don't have a necessarily compelling reason for it.

    Can't argue with that. OTOH, we have 0 workers at this point (another thing you can take care of). Chopping and quarrying/mining will be critical. Sooner rather than later may well be smart. I certainly wouldn't wait any longer than Monotheism to go in that direction.

    Agreed all around. I also think we may well want to run a CE since we're Financial, too. And we can't run more than one spy specialist easily. So Pottery has another thing going for it.

    Yeah, and all that food at our capital is a good settler/worker producer. That would probably me my approach, at least initially, though we then have long walks ahead.

    Finding military resources is another argument for BW ASAP, too.

    I'm not convinced south and east are islands instead of just a really twisty part of our continent. That's part of the reason I was hugging the coast. One thing to think about is that physical proximity to the capital is a factor in espionage cost, so an AI city just across the water wouldn't be all bad.

    See, this is why y'all need to keep talking. I am reading and learning and enjoying.

    Geez, almost like somebody planned that. :twitch: :dubious: Would I intentionally make the endgame that hard? :lol:

    Arathorn
     
  17. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Random thoughts:

    Agree on Great Lighthouse, that's why I'd go Sailing next. We can quarry the marble (with our non-existent worker) for extra production (and gold) in time to have researched BW after that (and while we are building GL). Then AH and Pottery.

    The plan might be for worker-->GLight--->2-whip settler when we have BW-->keep on GLight. Although for Oracle, remember we have marble and are industrious, might only take a few turns.

    As ZPV says, volume of (affordable cities) is important here.

    Also think that Alphabet is very important, not so much for spies but for trading. Given we have Mansu and Pericles it might be available early.
     
  18. Rowain deWolf

    Rowain deWolf Chieftain

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    ;)

    Good Luck with this Game
     
  19. ZPV

    ZPV Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

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    turn 30 - 2800 BC. Tech switches to Bronze Working, and we start a worker. Despite appearances, it can be MMed to build the worker in 7 turns, and research in 8 turns. Our garrison Quechua will go exploring as a result - a replacement should follow the worker.

    turn 36 - 2550 BC. Judaism FIDL. We wouldn't have gotten it anyway. :lol:

    turn 37 - 2520 BC. Our worker is complete, a garrison Quechua is started. The worker moves to the hill, to chop next turn.

    turn 38 - 2480 BC. BW is in. Our nearest copper is 15 tiles away... as the crow flies. Much further by foot. :(

    turn 40 - 2400 BC. Cuzco is size 5, and we revolt to slavery now for MM reasons.
    Our medic quechua has found a peninsula which leads towards the islands to our east. However, we know they are islands, because we don't get culture on the coast near them in our 3rd ring.

    turn 47 - 2120 BC. Northern quechua meets a human barb (warrior). I'll go hide in a forest. Animal Husbandry is in, and we don't have any horses. I start The Wheel, lacking any better ideas. My plan to generate a lot of whip overflow (into GLH, I guess) is almost complete.

    turn 49 - 2040 BC. Our lighthouse is whipped for 2 pop, overflow will go into a 69/100 settler, and the city will grow back to size 4 IBT.

    turn 50 - time to hand over. I haven't been as successful as I'd like with exploring in the north, due to the need to dodge an inconveniently located barbarian warrior. Regardless, here is a map of the known world:



    There is a lot of food at our capital, and enough for about one more city, but then there is a barren stretch. Beyond that, the land seems very lush. Pericles should be quite happy with that. :mad:
    I'm torn between two city sites - on the rice (which we otherwise won't improve for quite a long time), or on the corner 1SE of the rice (left is north in that picture), borrowing a clam from the capital. An island city could then work the fish a bit later on.

    And here is our capital:



    As you can see, there is a settler due to complete in 1 turn. However, I'd whip it for 2 pop this turn, so we have lots of overflow, if we want to build a wonder.

    We haven't met anyone except Pericles, so I'm beginning to think we may have to target techs to trade which the AI will trade as a monopoly. In the immediate future, I think that's just Alphabet and Monarchy; two techs we want sooner rather than later, due to the map's lack of happiness and the variant.

    Roster:
    Arathorn
    ZPV (Just played)
    Methos (15 turns) UP NOW
    Rex Tyrannus - On deck
    Ozbenno
     

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  20. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    With the lack of happiness, 1SE and borrowing clams from capital seems OK, will be production poor but can have many cottages.

    If we're at happy limit, then 2 whip settler into TGL is a good plan.

    Alphabet seems a more likely monopoly tech than Monarchy for trading.
     

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