LotR3 - SHADOW - Emperor training

Arathorn

Catan player
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Jan 10, 2002
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Once again, "stolen" from Sirian's great thread and modified for our purposes.

This is the Shadow Thread for Arathorn's Training Day Game.


* We're going to have some blurred results because of players finding out things in their versions of the game when they explore in different directions and do different things. This will lead to foreknowledge of some game data that would not be accessible in a normal game. This is unavoidable here, but I ask that players give thought to this and make whatever effort they deem appropriate to base their decisions on what is known in the Official Game. Don't bend over backward, just... pay attention. We are aiming here more at learning than winning, but you don't want to get used to having bonus information.

* We're going to have lots of confusion about this, and also more "contamination" from "alternate timelines" if I try to run everything in one thread. Therefore, I have concluded (Well, followed the lead of those smarter than I) that I should run ONLY the Official Game in the original LotR3 thread, and open a shadow thread for everything else.

* The LotR3 thread is for the Official Game. What shall be posted there is the reports and results of the player who is Up on each turn, along with my critique and any questions and answers players have in regard to those results.

* This thread will handle everything else, including the turn reports of all players not Up on that turn, all critiques of these reports, and even my own reports from my shadow turns.

* Players who are UP should avoid reading any further in the shadow thread once others start posting shadow reports from the same turn. IE, it's OK to refer back to the shadow thread as a reference, but I ask that you not do so when you're Up, especially in regard to finding out what others have done on the turn you're about to play, so that your official turn results will be as "pure" as you can manage under these conditions.


Everybody is shadowing the game but not part of the Roster, or who in on the Roster but NOT currently "Up", should post their turn reports here. This will include me, when I am not Up.



As for how to post files with your reports, there are a few simple steps.

1) Please identify your savegames. This is ESSENTIAL, so that nobody ever gets files confused. That could waste a lot of time and cause major hassles. Please adopt the follow convention:

Official Turns: no need to do anything special. Just "Hiawatha of the Iroquois, ###year" is OK. As would be lotr3-iroquois-####year. For OFFICIAL TURNS ONLY.

Shadow Turns: Name them "lotr3-shadow-MyName-###year.sav"
Examples:

lotr3-shadow-ChrTh-2550BC.sav
lotr3-shadow-Arathorn-750BC.sav
lotr3-shadow-arizona_steve-50BC.sav
lotr3-shadowObserverXYZ-1000AD.sav

IMPORTANT: if your savegame doesn't observe the naming protocol and you post a shadow turn with another name, I will almost assuredly NOT deal with that file, and you will not get any feedback on that turn. No second chances, so do what is appropriate to remind yourself. This is important to SAVE TIME and preserve our energies for the game instead of wasting them on sorting files that are inadequately labeled.


2) Please identify all files related to this game in the following formats:

For Official Turns: gamename-civ-date.extension
Examples:

lotr3-iroquois-4000bc.zip
lotr3-iroquois-3500bc.jpg
lotr3-iroquois-50ad.zip

For Shadow Turns: gamename-shadow-yourname-date.extension

as above, with possibly .jpg extensions as well.

3) Currently there is some problem at the CivFanatics file server regarding CAPS for file extensions (.ZIP .JPG .SAV etc). So please make sure your files have their extensions in lower case.

4) When you go to upload a file, you have to click Reply to one of the threads, then scroll down to the bottom of the forum reply page. On the far right at the bottom is an Upload Files option. Click that, it opens a mini-window, you can upload up to three files at a time.

5) Once the files are on the server, you have to include a link to them in your post, where appropriate. You can link to images with the IMG vb Code button above the body of your reply message, and can link to zip files with the HTTP:// button.

I keep a shortcut for use in pasting the URL in a text file on my desktop, so I don't have to remember the URL and don't have to type it over and over. Here's a copy:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/

Just add your filename to that in the IMG and HTTP:// buttons. If you need help with this (I can't imagine any of you would, since most of you are SG veterans....), please ask and we'll try to get it all sorted out.

The game is under way. You'll find the 4000BC save file and a picture in the official LotR3 thread. Should be fun, let's get it on! Friday, the next turn will go -- earlier if everybody's happy with the first 10 turns (probably the case).

Arathorn
 
Here's my shadow turn from 4000BC to 3500BC.

4000BC (0) - The great Iroqious nation picks a fine location to start their grand civilation. I found Salmanca at our starting location. I send our scout south and our worker south to work the rich grassland which has the easiest way out of our little valley. I choose to research bronze working and set our research at 90% our funds giving us the technology in 18 short turns... I choose to produce a second scout.

3950BC (1) - I decide to build a mine first with our worker to increase production. Our scout heads south more. I try to end turns in mountains or hills to get the biggest land area revealed.

3900BC (2) - The lands around us are rich and fertile. This is a great land we live in.

3850BC (3) - I dicover cattle due west of Salmanca.

3800BC (4) - More cattle due east. Our scout is almost ready

3750BC (5) - Our scout is ready. I set production to a warrior who will be ready for militia duty and to maintain happiness. The scout heads north through the great Salmanca mountain range.

3700BC (6) - We encouter the russians. Another expansitionist civ is going to make our trait less valuable. They have bronze working, we have cermonial burial but no deal can be reach as this ***** Catherine doesn't know how to deal fairly. Our scout to the north sites a goody hut to the west. We change direction on this scout and head to the west while the scout heading south goes back north away from the direction of the russians to maximize our search for lost tribes.

3650BC (7) - We complete our first mine and start a road. We recieve 25 gold from the the good hut and find a great settle factory to the west of Salamanca.

3600BC (8) - My decision to move north with our first scout nets us Warrior code. The scout heading west finds a great ocean next to a desert. We also discover incense.

3550BC (9) - We produce our first warrior. We decide to produce a second scout.

3500BC (10) - Our borders expand, our road completes and we move to the second rich grassland to mine it. I increase to 100% science and gain a turn. We will have bronze working in 4 turns.
 
(1)4000 BC:
Salamanca is founded. Our scout sees a goody hut to the east. A Warrior is started.

Our wise men start to study Alphabet.

(2)3950 BC:
Nothing. Our scout moves on square closer to the goody hut.

(3)3900 BC:
We get a Warrior from the goody hut!

(4)3850 BC:
Our scout hops from mountain to mountain, making use of the improved range. Wheat along the floodplains to the west..

Worker still building our first road? :confused:

(5)3800 BC:
Finally our lazy worker finishes his road. (Never paid that much attention to how long the

first road takes before..) He starts a mine.

(6)3750 BC:
Salamanca finishes its fist Warrior. Starts a Settler. The best move? Shoulda temple come

first? more warriors? I decide not..

Our Conscript Warrior finds another goody hut, and Incense! to the North West. Land is

spotted off shore to the east.

(7)3700 BC:
More exploring. I move our Warrior out of Salamanca to explore nearby mountains.

(8)3650 BC:
The Olmec tribe teaches us Bronze Working!

(9)3600 BC:
More exploring.

(10)3550 BC:
We meet a Russian scout. They have nothing to offer, we have Ceremonial Burial..

(11)3500 BC: (To match Architect)
Silk to the south! Borders expand.


Notes: Why does my land sound different from Architect? He had cattle, I had Wheat?

EDIT: Oh silly me, when he said West, he meant towards the lower left screen, I meant directly across.. :crazyeye:
 
I just wanted to remind you guys that I won't be getting my first few shadow turns in, as I'm out of town. I'll still be paying close attention!
 
What did we do differently so far?

I sent my worker to build a road first, Architect built a mine first.
End result looks the same, but he has more cash than I did (35 vs 30) Did I have more units? Dont think so.
Me: 1 Worker, 1 scout, 2 warriors.
Architect 1Worker, 2 Scouts, 1 Warrior.

No warrior guarding Salamanca in my game.. definite :smoke: there? Am I asking for rioting once my city hits size 3 (and before it builds its first settler?)


One thing I see right now.. the results of our early turns will never be known as we will always abandon our shadow game in favour of the official post each round.

The extra scout at the beginning is a good idea from Architect.. I tend to build military and then settlers..

EDIT: OK after giving a few more minutes to my 5 minute analysis here.. Architect got 25 gold from a hut, which I didn't get, plus he set the science rate all the way up. Gee I'm learning already.. :crazyeye:
 
Played without any reference to the alternative timelines on this thread...

(1) 4000BC:
I usually start off by selecting the scout and moving him first. He is moved to the East onto the mountain where he spies a goody hut.
The settler is in an excellent start position. Next to the river, two shielded grasslands immediately accessible. I plop down Salamanca where he stands. A warrior is ordered.
I zoom to the city and make a note of the shielded grassland on which the first citizen has been placed. It's the shielded grassland to the South-East of the city. The worker is moved there.
Research is started on The Wheel. My strategy here is to beeline to Horseback Riding to make early use of our mounted warriors and go for early conquest of a neighbouring civ.

(2) 3950BC
Our worker mines the square which our lone citizen is working.
The scout is moved North-East and is on the hill South of the goody hut, which will be popped next turn.

(3) 3900BC
The goody hut is popped, and we get a conscript warrior.
The minimap suggests that there is more land to the South than to the North. I will send the scout South and the conscript warrior to the North.
Warrior is sent North West onto the plains.

(4) 3850BC
Scout move South-East, then South across the river.
Warrior moves North-West onto more plains, looking for mountains to get a better view of the land.

(5) 3800BC
Scout moves two squares South, onto a hill.
Warrior moves North-West onto more plains.
Salamanca produces warrior, starts another scout. Must make use of the expansionist trait. Warrior fortifies. This is Emperor and we need military police when we get to population 3 (to pop another settler).

(6) 3750BC
Scout moves two squares South East (via plains) onto another hill. Looks like the end of a small peninsula there.
Our wandering warrior climbs up a mountain to the North and spies more coastline. Could we be on an island?

(7) 3700BC
Scout moves two squares West and spies two silk colonies in the jungle.

(8) 3650BC
A mine is completed by our worker. Next thing to do is road it.
Having got a cushion of 24 gold in the treasury, I up science to 100% to drop The Wheel from 34 turns to 21 turns at break-even gold.
Our wandering warrior has managed to hike North onto the third peak there and spies two caskets of incense which will be of great use to our smelly poplace.

(9) 3600BC
Warrior moves East onto another peak and spies a second goody hut.
Our scout has climed West along two mountains and spies lush grasslands.
On the AI turn I see a (I think) Russian scout zip through the range of vision of the scout.
Salamanca produces a second scout. Another warrior is ordered. Salamanca will grow to size 2 next turn.

(10) 3550BC
Scout #2 heads West into the hills.
Scout #1 continues West into the grasslands and ends up next to a foreign scout. I was right, it was the Russians, and their hairy-armpitted ex-shotputter of a leader is annoyed. She needs to stay off those steroids. They would be insulted by a straight swap of Bronze Working for Ceremonial Burial, so I refuse any further dealings.
Wandering warrior moves to the incense hills next to the goody hut.

File: lotr3-shadow-Arizona_Steve-3550BC.sav
 
First, the Save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-ChrTh-3500BC.sav

Next, the Report:
Turn 0: 4000 BC
An Emperor Game...frankly I'm nervous...but at the same time...I'm ready to rock and or roll!
I love the starting position...it's like a pleasant valley...in fact, that's what I name the first city...
Pleasant Valley is built, a Scout is ordered.
Worker moves SE to Road and Mine.
Scout heads E (terrain looks more level, more bang for my buck)...Goody Hut already spotted.

Turn 1: 3950 BC
My witch-doctors need guidance...I order up Bronze Working. I raise Science to 90% to get it in 18 turns while breaking even (this is feeling eerily like my PROD Shadow turn)
Scout heads towards Goody Hut, worker starts Road

Turn 2: 3900 BC
Pop the Goody Hut: Warrior. I send him N.

Turn 3: 3850 BC
Found the ocean on the East, and a Wheat on a Flood Plain...possible city site, but the amount of desert seems dissuasive...but there may be enough flood plain to support a thriving worker/settler farm.

Turn 4: 3800 BC
Worker finishes Road, starts mine. I loathe not being industrious.
I send Scout S to explore coast.

Turn 5: 3750 BC
Pleasant Valley finishes Scout and orders a Warrior. In the PROD game I ordered a second scout at this point, but I fear the AI more since this is Emperor level. I send him W, where he reveals what looks like a nice area for a second city.
It's beginning to look like we're at the NE extreme of a Pangaea...although there's enough room in every direction to expand around the capital with low-corruption cities.

Turn 6: 3700 BC
Goody Hut spotted by W Scout. E scout gets ready to turn W again as he reaches a Southern coast...Jungle to the South.

Turn 7: 3650 BC
Goody Hut popped: the Olmecs teach us Masonry. Good for them...mucho Incense is revealed...as is...Coast to the W. Perhaps we're on a Continent after all (although it's possible the coast is a bay...I see land across the way).
Warrior exploring N finds more Incense...but it's going to be tough to grab them due to the Rocky Terrain.

Turn 8: 3600
To the South near the Jungle...Silks. Excellent...two luxuries relatively close by.
Warrior finds Goody Hut...will pop in 2.

Turn 9: 3550 BC
More map exploration...little to note.

Turn 10: 3500 BC
The Biggie
Pleasant Valley expands. Warrior finished, second ordered up.
Scout spotted...Russian! Russians are withing 20 spaces of our position...and if this is a Continent, then they are sharing it with us.
I decide to make contact with Cathy. I offer Ceremonial Burial, and she offers Bronze Working + 10 Gold. I counter with 14 Gold and get it, saving 5 turns. I order up Iron Working, and run a -1 Gold deficit to get it in 24 turns (saving 5 turns)...once I get the Road built on the second worked square I should break even again...right?
The Illinois give us a Skilled Warrior...would've prefered Iron Working...especially considering my scout just discovered that Moscow is two cities' distance due South from Pleasant Valley (fortunately through jungle).
It looks like this is a Pangaea and not a Continent, and that the West Coast is a bay...but that will be determined next turn.
Hrm, deficit is now -2 Gold (too many troops being supported)...I lower science rate and lose 5 turns (29 turns at -1 Gold).
Hopefully when the worker finishes the road...

It looks like we're going to be fighting Russia. Trading with Cathy did not remove her 'annoyed' status. Ah well...Viva le Iriquois!

Time to read the rest of the thread! :)

Finally, I click on Submit Reply
 
It's interesting that I was able to trade with Cathy, but the rest weren't...I'm guessing it's because I was already working on Bronze Working and had few turns left (5)

BTW, I did fortify my first Warrior on Pleasant Valley/Salamanca... I had forgotten about the Size 3 rioting for this level, but that won't happen now (not that the game will be continued :) )
 
OK. Everybody's played -- including me. I'll be posting my turn in the main thread sometime today (I am at work after all and have to do some things besides Civ3 stuff) and doing a set of preliminary comments today. I'll download the games and do more in-depth comments tomorrow. Then we'll see about return comments/questions and moving on.

Arathorn

P.S. My first set of turns are WAY different than anybody else's here. :)
 
4000 bc - Founding before moving the scout? :smoke: You want to know as much of the lay of the land as possible, before blinding plopping down the settler where he begins. Now, we did start in a pretty good spot, so it's not too horrible, but you always want to see as much as possible before making that first decision.

Bronze working? Fine by me -- it's a matter of taste what tech to research first. Personally, I think spears are overcosted for their value and think BW will come naturally later more easily. Still, not a good/bad thing, just a choice.

90%, though? Hmmm....that's break-even rate. 18 turns. As we grow, the time will go down. Still, it's 1/2 the cost to buy as to research, which means we're spending ~35 more gold than we need to. That's almost a whole 'nother tech. I'll not go so far as to call it :smoke: but it definitely is questionable.

Scout as unit to build? Absolutely. Worker to shielded grass? Definitely -- improving those good tiles near the homeland is definitely important.

3950 bc - Mining the grass first? :goodjob: Ending in hills/mountains with the scout is good -- moving him one on flatlands first is best, if possible. Not clear from the report if that was done or not.

3800 bc - Cattle due east? ??? Not seen the save and was too tired last night to remember to bring a screenshot. But ???

3750 - Warrior ordered. Can't argue too strenuously with that. MP duty and defense vs. barbs/AI and increases our army size. But could it have waited? Is this warrior going to do things that lux tax couldn't? And can we get more land explored with a settler? Certainly not my choice but it's a five-and-a-half/half-dozen decision, so questionable.

3700 - The AI will ALWAYS screw you on tech prices until more contact is made on higher levels. It's just accepted.

Turning the scout around? Probably :smoke: as the land past ours is safer from the expansionist Russians than the land immediately beyond them/between us. And did you go back on the same path you took in? Definitely :smoke: if you did that! You need to see more/new as much as possible.

3550 - What did you do with the warrior? What was his purpose? Could it have waited? If so, :smoke: . If there's a purpose besides MP (cheaper to just raise lux tax), what is it? If not, should've done things in the other order to get more land explored faster.

3500 - Good call on the worker. Science at 100%? See previous comments. The time went down, too, because of the contact with Russia who knows the tech. The road also gave one extra trade arrow (our fifth), so there was a difference in arrows between 90% (4) and 100% (5).

Overall:
:D - 2 (worker actions and first scout build)
:confused: - 2 (warrior/scout second build, science rate)
:( - 2 (turning scout around, not moving scout first)

Overall grade: B-

Arathorn
 
4000 - Did you move the scout first? Doesn't look like it from the order of your report. Definitely :smoke: to not explore before settling. Salamanca founded where it was. OK choice.

Alphabet? With what purpose in mind? About the only thing it leads to is literature and I don't see the big call for that, as we're expansionist and can probably get enough techs that way to make the library unnecessary. Without explanation, I'm gonna say questionable move.

Warrior as first build? Almost 100% certainly :smoke: . Scouts are faster, less intrusive in enemy domains, pop better, and do everything better. It's always true, but it's especially true early in the game that knowledge is power. Knowledge includes exploring all the surrounding territory. A warrior first hurts that.

3850 - Hop from mountaintop to mountaintop? Good philosophy with an exploring warrior but not with an exploring scout! He can move two -- take advantage of that, even if it means moving NW NE to go one north -- you might see something new/different from the lowlands interstice. And what's that warrior doing?

3800 - Oh, a road first? That gives 6 commerce instead of three shields (since you mined next). That's very rarely a good trade, as the shields lead directly to better development. About the best ratio you can find is upgrading units and that's two gold to one shield. Buying (which we can't do until later) is 4:1. Definitely :smoke: .

3750 - Start a settler who will have his shields completed before the city grows to size 3? Definitely :smoke: -- nearly ANYTHING is a better option.

OK, so the conscript warrior is exploring. The warrior should be exploring the rough lands (mountains, jungles if you'd found any yet) as he can move as fast as a scout there. The scout is best for flat lands.

3700 -You're thrashing against yourself here. You built a warrior and then are using it to explore, which is really the scout's job. If it's an exploring unit, build a scout. If you mean it for MP or attacking, you should say so. Cross purposes. Have a goal and stick to it.

Overall:
:D - 1 (meaning WEST when you say west)
:confused: - 2 (scout movement,science rate)
:( - 4 (warrior before scout, roading before mine, warrior/scout confusion, starting settler so early)

Overall grade: D-

Arathorn
 
4000 - Moved the scout first -- :goodjob: . But you didn't recognize the potential of the flood plain wheat. And you should have moved him SE NE to maximize viewing potential.

Founding the city where you did -- certainly not :smoke: as it's not at all a BAD spot, just that there was a much better one easily available. You'd made the correct move to get the knowledge -- you just didn't use it.

Worker -- right. Checking Salamanca is fine. But you can CHOOSE which to improve and make sure Salamanca is working that one. At times, that might be important.

The Wheel -- I like this choice. It moves us towards our UU, helps in finding out where horses are, which is valuable on a number of levels. You didn't say what rate. Sticking at 50% is probably the worst decision to make -- either go full bore (which is probably bad) or nearly zero.

3950 - Right, mine before road.

3900 - Warriors should hop mountaintop to mountaintop as much as possible, as they only move one and get the widest view that way. Sending the scout back SE is probably a good choice, too, to get the flatlands and the larger area.

3800 - WARRIOR out of Salamanca??? You gotta do the second scout first. I've said it before and I'll say it again. As expansionist, one of the few advantages is having two-move scouts available immediately. To NOT build them immediately and take advantage of that trait is borderline criminal and certainly :smoke:. Scouts are so much better at seeing the lands than warriors that not making the first build in the capital of an expansionist civ a scout should only be done in OCC -- and probably not even then.

You need the MP at population three, which is many MANY turns down the line (and even then, you can run lux tax to keep the people happy). We need to explore now. Even before knowing another expansionist civ is near, you can know the AI gets tons of free units at emperor and will be out exploring/popping huts in force. A 5-turn delay in that second settler can easily cost two or three goodie huts, which can be deadly. Right now, that warrior is sitting -- essentially useless, whereas the scout would be valuable immediately.

3650 - What good is a 24-gold cushion? Why is that better than 10? It can't upgrade a warrior to sword (40 gold), won't buy a worker (at least 26 gold), is ripe for extortion from the AI (so-and-so demands 15 gold), and is generally worthless. If you want to research, do it whole-hog or minimal hog. The 24-gold level is pretty worthless.


Overall:
:D - 3 (moving scout first, worker actions, tech choice)
:confused: - 1 (scout movement)
:( - 2 (warrior before scout, science rate)

Overall grade: B-

Arathorn
 
4000 - Gotta move the scout first. Not a bad city selection site. Good worker choice location.

3950 - Same questionable science rate. Same :smoke: with road before mine.

3850 - Flood plain is the best food source in the game. Even in despotism, an irrigated flood plain will provide three food, which makes for faster growth, which is critical -- people = power! OK, so the shield production sucks, but that's why there are other squares around -- and there are some in that area.

3750 - Why fear the AI more? Because they start with so many units? We can't fight a determined AI enemy on emperor for a while anyway. It's actually a closer call at regeant where a stupid AI might attack and you can fight it off with a few stone axes. Yes, we will need warriors -- probably a fistful before too long, but this early, the emphasis is definitely on exploration. At least you got the one scout out first.

3500 - Let's examine the trade with Cathy. You trade away CB, which is worth at least 30 gold (probably more depending on contacts Cathy has made -- 60 quite likely) for 5 turns saving on Bronze working (20 commerce) and 14 gold. Not enough info for us to tell the value. Probably slightly in Cathy's favor.

You can never get the tech you are researching out of a goodie hut, so there is no way the Illinois could have taught you iron working.

We have FAR too little map info to make any kind of continent/pangea/island determination. FAR too little. Only time will tell.

And war with Cathy is probably inevitable, but it might be 2500 BC and it might be 1500 AD. Let's wait and see.

:D - 1 (initial scout build)
:confused: - 2 (science rate, second build (warrior before scout))
:( - 2 (road before mine, not moving scout first)

Overall grade: C-

Arathorn
 
"You can never get the tech you are researching out of a goodie hut, so there is no way the Illinois could have taught you iron working. "

Ah...didn't know that. Chalk another up for experience.
 
Originally posted by Arathorn
Scouts are so much better at seeing the lands than warriors that not making the first build in the capital of an expansionist civ a scout should only be done in OCC -- and probably not even then.

I should throw out that in my OCC game with the Russians, I did in fact start by building 2 additional scouts, and the results were very nice indeed - I was always in control of the other civs right from the very start, manipulating contact and tech trading right from the beginning up to an easy cultural win. :cool:
 
Please upload the files using the "upload files" link at the bottom of the page and postinga link rather than using the "Attach file" option of the reply. This saves space for civfanatics, so we can continue using these boards -- and it makes my job finding files easier.

THIS time, I downloaded 'em all. NEXT time, just the ones uploaded and pointed to with a link will be considered.

I will look at the actual save files either tonight or tomorrow night.

Arathorn
 
Interjecting a comment here:

90%, though? Hmmm....that's break-even rate. 18 turns. As we grow, the time will go down. Still, it's 1/2 the cost to buy as to research, which means we're spending ~35 more gold than we need to. That's almost a whole 'nother tech. I'll not go so far as to call it weed but it definitely is questionable.

This used to be true. However, in patch 1.17 they introduced the Screw You factor: AI's demanding 3 for 1 on value on ALL trades. In patch 1.17f it was total weed to make any trades with the AI's whatsoever unless and until you made contact with everybody in the world, or at least everybody you can reach without the need for navigation techs. The extra squeeze they put on you cost more than the benefit of lower price to buy than to research for yourself. As a result, it was better to do your own research and just follow the AI's up the tree to reduce cost as much as possible. Having those first techs ASAP opens up options. I have been known to build temples or granaries starting in the first 1000 years, sometimes even before 3500BC.

I haven't played enough 1.21f to figure out the Screw You factor. It seems to have been reduced, but I don't think it went away. Certainly back in 1.07f, you could skip all research of any kind until you were ready to take and keep the tech lead, but I don't think we're back to that point again. It's more than just the cost to you, it's also what you give to the AI's and what they can do with the money.

I run 100% research out of the gate in every game I play, and continue to do so until I see an AI of the same culture group who is willing to give me discounts vs what the other civs are offering.

It's only half the cost to buy as to research if the AI's are offering market value. So far, they don't seem to be. I've not seen anything on the order of the unholy cheap prices you could buy tech for in 1.07, where you could purchase the whole ancient era for a song.


- Sirian


EDIT: Arathorn, I thought of something that may explain our differences on this point. The biggest problem with ancient research is running out of good things to be building. Since you tend to focus on ancient combat you don't have that problem. You build barracks and units and go after somebody, so you never run into a glass ceiling of having nothing useful left to do in your cities or having your expansion curtailed because you don't have access yet to courthouses, harbors, markets, libraries or whatever.

In LOTR1, our lack of early expansion was nothing short of painful. The Great Library did turn out to help us, since some of the civs were off-continent and far away. You made contact with all three civs on our lands with rabid exploration push and that helped us a lot. Every time I came up, though, I felt like we were hopelessly behind the 8ball on number of cities and grabbing the lands. Abe got the furs right next to our capital, for instance. Right on top of us! If not for Otto leaving that back side on the east alone for too long, we might have had real troubles.

It's certainly better to make contact than to sit back, but there's also some edge of reliance on that in your openings. What would happen to you if you started in isolation or on a small continent with one or two neighbors tops? The min science gambit utterly fails in that situation, except to pull in mapmaking in cases where you can't go any faster even at max rate.

Doing 100% research is more stable. You know everything that is going to come online and when, or at least the MINIMUM of what you will have (huts or trade could bring more). Since that can be made to succeed in any situation, I've adopted it as SOP, standard operating procedure, for all my openings. There is always some point where I swap to cash-for-tech, but that varies according to the map.

The fix I've seen, I believe, to the Screw You factor, is that the AI no longer devalues your offerings as much. They pay better for things they buy or trade for off of you. In this regard, doing your own research can pay off once again, in a way that it never did in 1.17f. I still to find out more about the new economics to be able to optimally min/max the ancient research once again, though.
 
Originally posted by Arathorn

Overall:
:D - 1 (meaning WEST when you say west)
:confused: - 2 (scout movement,science rate)
:( - 4 (warrior before scout, roading before mine, warrior/scout confusion, starting settler so early)

Overall grade: D-

Arathorn

Ouch! Well to be expected, I'm playing WAY outside my league here..:rolleyes: :crazyeye:

I'll try to do better next time. :)
 
Originally posted by Arathorn

3800 bc - Cattle due east? ??? Not seen the save and was too tired last night to remember to bring a screenshot. But ???

Turning the scout around? Probably :smoke: as the land past ours is safer from the expansionist Russians than the land immediately beyond them/between us. And did you go back on the same path you took in? Definitely :smoke: if you did that! You need to see more/new as much as possible.

Arathorn [/B]

My mistake on the cattle, Meant west. I think turning the scout around and wasting one turn to try and find goody huts in a direction I don't know an expansionist civ is firmly planted is not :smoke:. I know from experience that if I encounter an AI, especially an expantionist one I'm not likely to find much of goody hut value in his direction. I also figured we would send a scout down south to find the russians a some point so my scout was better used exploring north.

Does that make sense?
 
Pre-Turn - :crazyeye: 5 current games - 2 japan, 2 iroqoius, 1 england (almost done)
Wierd how they bunch up for countries.

Interesting - Arathorn did NOT do what he said. I can reduce science slider to 10%
Don't touch builds. We need culture, and we need military.

(1) 3450 BC - Begin mining where the worker is sitting - we need a city with shield output.
Scout by Salamanca goes South twice - I wanted to know how good that river area is -
probably city #3 around here - There are silks. A high priority site.
Western scout goes south - cows spotted - more good terrain.
Northern scout goes North to forest - slow but I want the goody hut - north gives a better idea of coastline.
We could get Brozne working for CB and about $50. Lets wait for the good hut at least before decideing.
Trades are better when more civs are known.

(2) 3400 BC - Southern Scout goes - coastline confirmed, then NE
West scout goes - south (more cattle), east (into forest on 2nd move point)
North scout goes nw - will stop on goodie hill, so may as well check one more space, then sw -
pops the hut - Warrior code :)

(3) 3350 BC - Southern Scout - goes east to hill by moutain - can't move 2 hear.
Western scout in a 1 move block - goes south, the other scout can fill in the closer area.
Northern scout back to same forest it game from.
Salamanca builds warrior - I order another - I would like at least 1 unit in each city.

(4) 3300 BC - Niagra falls grows - luxuries have to go to 40% to avoid an entertainer - GACK!
Niagra will need MP quicker for happiness, so send warrior there.
"Southern" scout goes south, sw - He can't avoid some path retracing.
Western scout is in a jungle dreck - goes sw.
Northern scout goes south.

(5) 3250 BC - Southern scout goes double west.
Western scout goes se, I can already see coast - one of those annoying ones, after moving fog shows plain s better.
Northern scout goes s, se to mountain.
Salamanca completes warrior - with the 4 wheat square - I order a worker - need to improve Niagra falls.
AI was stupid, and I switch from forest to square being worked on by worker - :smoke: should done this in 3300 BC.

(6) 3200 BC - Southern scout goes south.
Western scout goes south.
Northern scout goes se, s.
MP in each city lets luxuries drop to 20%.

(7) 3150 BC - Worker starts road.
North scout - double s.
Southern scout - s
Western scout - se, s
Reveals a NOT good situation - Russia already has 2 workers - wheat square, fur, river, shield grass (irragated already).
A very good starting point.
Salamana completes worker, starts settler - will be back to size 3 in 3 turns.
I agree with the AI using the double shield grassland.

(8) 3100 BC - Worker moves to hill being used by Salamanca.
Northern scout - double s
Southern scout - s
Western scout - e (1st move into Russian area, s (leaving Russian area).

(9) 3050 BC - Southern scout s(russia), ne (leaving) - wierd, why does the jungle square let me see Moscow? Grassland was

same distance away.
"Western" scout se to mountain
Northern scout sw, sw
Working begins mining the hill - Already in use - If a current dead zone, would have done just road to working on the

floodplain wheat earlier.

(10) 3000 BC - :smoke: I have to watch the jungle borders better - Cathy was annoy with me crossing.
Northern scout - w, s - ending on mountain.
Southern scout - sw, w - leaving Russian territory.
Western scout - e (can't move 2).
Worker moves e - right click shows 1 gold, still a river area - this is best square as we working toward city #3, the silk

zone.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-LKendter-3000BC.zip

The proposed dot-map.
LAK-051.jpg


Notations -
Yellow X - will be claimed by Niagra falls.
Black X - Dead Zone
Red X / Border - A lower priority, mostly water city - The red check space will let it get to size 2 easily with the space

being mined at some point.
Blue X / Border - The KEY town - I want the silks before Russia snags them. I realize the is creates 2 - 1 square water spaces, but I feel the fresh water is more important.

Emprorer is havoc on happiness, really could use the silks.
Green X / Border - A good future city spot - If the gold hills start getting worked, a hugh revenue spot.

Summary - Moscow rocks as a starting zone - 3 shield grasslands, connected furs, wheat, river - not good for us.

Possible weed arguement, exploring by the Red X area, then reversing direction. However, with Russian in that area - I did NOT want him to find a hut up there.


EDIT: The real game posted almost on top of this one -
What a difference a scout direction made!
:smoke: - I expect this somewhere for scout choices - real game mcuh better
 
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