Lots of commerce, but no hammers

[Solon70]

As I struggle to master the concept of specializing cities, I'm finding that sometimes the commerce city is easier said than done.

Let's imagine a city totally surrounded by grassland, commerce heaven. Let's assume it has a food resource or two for speedy growth. The idea of having a city surrounded by 20 towns pumping out commerce is awe-inspiring - but how do we get there?

1) What buildings do I really need in this city? Granary, courthouse? Monument or some other culture building for expansion? Lighthouse if coastal?

What about happiness/health buildings? It's a shame to have all this great land if the city is stuck at size 8 because of the happiness cap.

What about commerce multipliers? If I plan to run the science slider near 100%, maybe I don't need any wealth multipliers... but the market and grocer may be important for health/happiness reasons as well.

I keep coming up with a very short list of buildings that I can do without. Maybe I don't need a barracks if I'm not producing units, maybe I don't need a bank if the science slider is near 100%, but there's a long list of buildings that seem pretty important. I can't break out of this mindset even though a lot of players seem to be telling me that I can just build a couple essential buildings and leave it alone.

2) Once I've figured out which buildings I really need - how do I get them built? I only have 1 hammer from the city center, so do I build a bunch of workshops? A lot of people rave about workshops and/or watermills based on how powerful they become in the late game, but what about when you need production in the BC years, where workshops kind of suck?

Do I rely on slavery to whip them all out? This becomes a problem if I found a city in the later years when I'm in a better civic; I don't want to revolt back to slavery just so a couple of new commerce cities can get their infrastructure running. More to the point, unless I can seriously pare down the list of buildings I want, the whipping process never ends. Your city won't be putting out much commerce if you're constantly whipping away 5 pop to build a market.

3) Once the city is finally established, what do your commerce cities typically build for the balance of the game? Wealth/research? Or do you let it slowly bang out nonessential stuff like a market over the course of 75 turns?

How do people deal with these issues in practice, at the various stages of the game?

 

[Ibian]

I give all my cities 12 base hammers as a baseline. 8 if thats not possible. As i run out of infrastructure to build or i reach the democracy age, whichever comes first, i can replace the workshops and mines with cottages or occasionally windmills.

 

[AnitaGaribaldi]

You need buildings for increase the science output and health. If you are running a lot of cottage cities with few specialists you should run US. You will be able to rush buy buildings and all your town will give one hammer. So a city with 18 towns and 2 food resources will have 19 hammers/turns.

 

[Solon70]

I give all my cities 12 base hammers as a baseline. 8 if thats not possible. As i run out of infrastructure to build or i reach the democracy age, whichever comes first, i can replace the workshops and mines with cottages or occasionally windmills.

Does this mean you wouldn't even settle a city like I describe in the early game? Or would you run 4 farms and 4 workshops to get the initial buildings up?

 

[BurN]

As I struggle to master the concept of specializing cities, I'm finding that sometimes the commerce city is easier said than done.

Let's imagine a city totally surrounded by grassland, commerce heaven. Let's assume it has a food resource or two for speedy growth. The idea of having a city surrounded by 20 towns pumping out commerce is awe-inspiring - but how do we get there?

1) What buildings do I really need in this city? Granary, courthouse? Monument or some other culture building for expansion? Lighthouse if coastal?

What about happiness/health buildings? It's a shame to have all this great land if the city is stuck at size 8 because of the happiness cap.

What about commerce multipliers? If I plan to run the science slider near 100%, maybe I don't need any wealth multipliers... but the market and grocer may be important for health/happiness reasons as well.

I keep coming up with a very short list of buildings that I can do without. Maybe I don't need a barracks if I'm not producing units, maybe I don't need a bank if the science slider is near 100%, but there's a long list of buildings that seem pretty important. I can't break out of this mindset even though a lot of players seem to be telling me that I can just build a couple essential buildings and leave it alone.

2) Once I've figured out which buildings I really need - how do I get them built? I only have 1 hammer from the city center, so do I build a bunch of workshops? A lot of people rave about workshops and/or watermills based on how powerful they become in the late game, but what about when you need production in the BC years, where workshops kind of suck?

Do I rely on slavery to whip them all out? This becomes a problem if I found a city in the later years when I'm in a better civic; I don't want to revolt back to slavery just so a couple of new commerce cities can get their infrastructure running. More to the point, unless I can seriously pare down the list of buildings I want, the whipping process never ends. Your city won't be putting out much commerce if you're constantly whipping away 5 pop to build a market.

3) Once the city is finally established, what do your commerce cities typically build for the balance of the game? Wealth/research? Or do you let it slowly bang out nonessential stuff like a market over the course of 75 turns?

How do people deal with these issues in practice, at the various stages of the game?

In essence you would only need a library. But you might need a monument first depending on what's in the first borders. But what I would do in general is monument->granary->library->market (or mon->lib->gran->market). Use hereditary+units to grow beyond normal happiness cap so you have the pop to do high pop whips.

Since it's a good food site, granary+whip will be the way to go till US.

 

[Solon70]

In essence you would only need a library. But you might need a monument first depending on what's in the first borders. But what I would do in general is monument->granary->library->market (or mon->lib->gran->market). Use hereditary+units to grow beyond normal happiness cap so you have the pop to do high pop whips.

Since it's a good food site, granary+whip will be the way to go till US.

So you would build a library, but not bother with a university or any other research multiplier? Market, but no grocer? I'm curious if you could go into a little more detail about how you decide which buildings are worthwhile and which aren't.

Ideally, it seems like there would be some kind of rule of thumb we could all look to, like "it's worth spending X hammers on a building if it's going to improve your research by Y bpt." Maybe it can't be made that simple.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So you would build a library, but not bother with a university or any other research multiplier? Market, but no grocer? I'm curious if you could go into a little more detail about how you decide which buildings are worthwhile and which aren't.

Ideally, it seems like there would be some kind of rule of thumb we could all look to, like "it's worth spending X hammers on a building if it's going to improve your research by Y bpt." Maybe it can't be made that simple.

I don't think it can. You could maybe weigh the amount of commerce a city will produce over the remainder of the game, and then decide if it is worth reducing it in the short run vs the returns offered once say a university is up...for EVERY CITY, if you want, but even that would be touch and go.

I war a lot so my cap is usually taken care of via masses of resources and some HR units until US.

I usually work libraries and markets into commerce cities (after monument/granary typically), using the whip. After that, they tend to slow build unless I'm pushing for faster oxford or something...usually not.

They also wind up building units in the end game if my empire gets sprawling and I want to end it. EVERY city makes units then, and I'll rush buy when I can. It might take 20 turns to make an infantry in cities like this, but when you have 15 of them doing it...well...it's not insignificant especially with the gold they contribute towards buying .

Lots of games has taught me to err on the side of units . I guess that's how I am though.

 

[Polobo]

A single city surrounded by grassland with little/no production is still worth settling but is mostly going to churn out raw commerce. If you have a few cities the have very little production but lots of grassland you should be able to run cottages to up your research enough to beeline Code of Laws (for Caste System) and Guilds. Workshops then become -1/+3 equivalent to a mine. Yes, you could focus on the whip to get infrastructure up but then you will have less commerce to multiply and you won't be maturing cottages while you are building. Better to mature them first and when the workshop becomes more powerful (at least running caste system OR guilds, preferably both) then start installing infrastructure (get a granary fast though unless you have a bonus food or two)

 

[mungbean]

A single city surrounded by grassland with little/no production is still worth settling but is mostly going to churn out raw commerce. If you have a few cities the have very little production but lots of grassland you should be able to run cottages to up your research enough to beeline Code of Laws (for Caste System) and Guilds. Workshops then become -1/+3 equivalent to a mine. Yes, you could focus on the whip to get infrastructure up but then you will have less commerce to multiply and you won't be maturing cottages while you are building. Better to mature them first and when the workshop becomes more powerful (at least running caste system OR guilds, preferably both) then start installing infrastructure (get a granary fast though unless you have a bonus food or two)

I get stuck in the no production mode a lot. The worst case I find is

- jungly start
- isolated or semi-isolated (island, possibly large, but not near land that is any better either owned by you or by someone else; even if someone is nearby it is sometimes hard to find a way to defeat them in way if you are hard pressed to make units)
- few food resources or rivers (the former makes workshops a worse bet, the latter is bad for watermills and farms later); or food resources located in mostly one place (at least you can slave, but excessive slaving results in mondo unhappiness; under HR you can slave units and leave them as is for happiness, but that doesn't let you go to war)

Mostly what I do in these circumstances is cottage up in most places, try to maximize production sites (all mines and workshops in a city that can support it).

If there are warlike neighbors this tends to work out badly. Sucking up to them helps.

Truly isolated starts or starts with mansa, etc nearby are much better. Then I mostly maximize long-term potential (expand, try to whip needed buildings, cottage mostly, and then hope that over time your land advantage will pay off)

Happy to hear if there is a better way to play these games.

 

[mungbean]

I get stuck in the no production mode a lot. The worst case I find is

- jungly start
- isolated or semi-isolated (island, possibly large, but not near land that is any better either owned by you or by someone else; even if someone is nearby it is sometimes hard to find a way to defeat them in way if you are hard pressed to make units)
- few food resources or rivers (the former makes workshops a worse bet, the latter is bad for watermills and farms later); or food resources located in mostly one place (at least you can slave, but excessive slaving results in mondo unhappiness; under HR you can slave units and leave them as is for happiness, but that doesn't let you go to war)

Mostly what I do in these circumstances is cottage up in most places, try to maximize production sites (all mines and workshops in a city that can support it).

If there are warlike neighbors this tends to work out badly. Sucking up to them helps.

Truly isolated starts or starts with mansa, etc nearby are much better. Then I mostly maximize long-term potential (expand, try to whip needed buildings, cottage mostly, and then hope that over time your land advantage will pay off)

Happy to hear if there is a better way to play these games.

I forgot to mention that in these low production games i find drafting for units very helpful if you have enough happiness to support it (spiritual helps)

 

[Artichoker]

Let's imagine a city totally surrounded by grassland, commerce heaven. Let's assume it has a food resource or two for speedy growth. The idea of having a city surrounded by 20 towns pumping out commerce is awe-inspiring - but how do we get there?

1) What buildings do I really need in this city? Granary, courthouse? Monument or some other culture building for expansion? Lighthouse if coastal?

You bring up a very hypothetical situation...in most cases, there will be at least 2 or 3 hills that can be worked to bring up essential infrastructure buildings.

In the all-grassland scenario, I'd want to simulate the usual scenario as much as possible by building Workshops to supplement your city's production. If you can get grassland tiles with -1F/+3H, then that's your answer.

However, grassland Workshops don't begin that high, and they need certain techs to reach their full potential. If your Workshops are still at -1F/+1H, you would want something like whipping to help you get your buildings up quickly.

So, with Workshops out of consideration, here's what I'd do:

1) Build lots of Farms to boost your food surplus.

2) Use the Whip to get important buildings up, while growing your city at the same time.

3) Only after the city has grown, and the buildings are up, do you begin with the Cottages.

 

[mungbean]

Thanks for the advice. I just had a particularly nasty case of this effect

- semi isolated (accessible via galley)
- there was land on my starting island
- there were areas with literally zero hills (not counting peaks) and zero food, but a commerce resource or two
- the rivers were there but pretty sparse
- I wanted to settle the area before the AI did (so i couldn't just wait to get better techs)

Weirdly, I was even short of commerce because there was not enough production to build libraries or courthouses or food resources for pop to increase. I think I should have farmed more aggressively (CS a priority) to get so that either workshops were helpful or i could whip more. The interesting thing was that the long term potential of the land was good [if i ever got there].

The game worked out okay though, because by mid game the capital's forests had railroad/lumbermill hammers served as a military city, and there was coal on one of the few hills which pretty much saved me (by the end, capital was a big hammertown, and got the internet, which is pretty funny for a start that was mostly grassland). Beginning a little scary with all those cities taking 30 turns for a granary and not having enough food to whip (in a few cities before CS I couldn't even farm, which stunk big time).

 

[DaveMcW]

Let's assume it has a food resource or two for speedy growth.

Whip the granary.
Grow the city while slow-building a library.
Whip the library when it will add more beakers than the cottages you kill off.
Whip the university if you haven't built Oxford yet.
Whip the observatory when it will add more beakers than the cottages you kill off.
Whip the market when you have 1
Whip the grocer when you have 2
Whip the courthouse when upkeep hits 8
Whip the bank if you need to build Wall Street.
Switch to Universal Suffrage after towns have matured.
Build factory, coal plant, research lab with US hammers.
Build SS Casing.

 

[Ibian]

Does this mean you wouldn't even settle a city like I describe in the early game? Or would you run 4 farms and 4 workshops to get the initial buildings up?

As long as there is a food resource, the city is worth founding. On the other hand a mostly plains city with no food sources or even a river may or may not be worth it.

 

[DarkFyre99]

As I struggle to master the concept of specializing cities, I'm finding that sometimes the commerce city is easier said than done.

Let's imagine a city totally surrounded by grassland, commerce heaven. Let's assume it has a food resource or two for speedy growth. The idea of having a city surrounded by 20 towns pumping out commerce is awe-inspiring - but how do we get there?

Well... besides the fact that if you've got two food resources, then you won't have 20 towns...

To build buildings, you need hammers. There are five sources of hammers in the game: slavery, tiles, specialists, religious buildings, and gold. The two earliest sources are, of course, slavery and tiles. If a city has two sources of food, then slavery is usually a good choice, especially early in the game when your city is size six or below.

1) What buildings do I really need in this city? Granary, courthouse? Monument or some other culture building for expansion? Lighthouse if coastal?

It depends upon the purpose of the city, beyond simply generating commerce. About the only two buildings that are universal are the granery and the courthouse. Coastal cities will eventually need a lighthouse, but that's about it.

Research cities will build libraries, universities, observatories, and laboratories.

Wealth cities will build markets, grocers, and banks.

What about happiness/health buildings? It's a shame to have all this great land if the city is stuck at size 8 because of the happiness cap.

What about commerce multipliers? If I plan to run the science slider near 100%, maybe I don't need any wealth multipliers... but the market and grocer may be important for health/happiness reasons as well.

That depends upon how you're allocating your commerce. If you're diverting a significant (30%+) of commerce to wealth production, or plan to do so in the future, then your best bet is build markets and grocers, since they have multiple benefits.

If you're getting your getting the majority of your weath from non-commerce sources, then you're better off getting your happiness and health from other, less hammer intense sources.

Don't forget: resources can also provide happiness and health, and you don't have to build a building to immediately start reaping their benefits. If you have health problems, the best investment to solve may be to go to war and seize some bananas.

I keep coming up with a very short list of buildings that I can do without. Maybe I don't need a barracks if I'm not producing units, maybe I don't need a bank if the science slider is near 100%, but there's a long list of buildings that seem pretty important. I can't break out of this mindset even though a lot of players seem to be telling me that I can just build a couple essential buildings and leave it alone.

You need to learn how to specialize your cities better. The more specialized your cities, the fewer buildings you need.

I usually have a list of five buildings that I need for each city. Nearly every other building I can go without for much of the game...

2) Once I've figured out which buildings I really need - how do I get them built? I only have 1 hammer from the city center, so do I build a bunch of workshops? A lot of people rave about workshops and/or watermills based on how powerful they become in the late game, but what about when you need production in the BC years, where workshops kind of suck?

Do I rely on slavery to whip them all out? This becomes a problem if I found a city in the later years when I'm in a better civic; I don't want to revolt back to slavery just so a couple of new commerce cities can get their infrastructure running. More to the point, unless I can seriously pare down the list of buildings I want, the whipping process never ends. Your city won't be putting out much commerce if you're constantly whipping away 5 pop to build a market.

There's no hard fast rule, but in general, in the early game your better off whipping than relying on workshops. Mid-game caste system and research boosts workshop production. Late game you can run Universal Suffrage, which not only gives hammers to towns, but allows you to buy production.

However you build your buildings, doing a better job specializing your cities means you have to build fewer buildings in each city.

Just remember, for most of the game, your cities will have more tiles available than you can actually work. You can always build a few workshops, and divert your citizens to them to build essential buildings, then switch them back once you're done. You can always cottage them over later.

3) Once the city is finally established, what do your commerce cities typically build for the balance of the game? Wealth/research? Or do you let it slowly bang out nonessential stuff like a market over the course of 75 turns?

How do people deal with these issues in practice, at the various stages of the game?

You know the old saying, "You can never have too much gold," so if I don't have any essential buildings to build, I build wealth, either directly, or, if I have the right resource, by building Wonders I have no intention of finishing.

 

[Polobo]

An unusual but effective way, while under caste system especially, to generate both science and happy faces is to prioritize drama and construction to build theaters and coliseums. Run the drama slider at 20% and you get a +6 happy in any city with both buildings. The theater is cheap and by itself can get you +4 @ 20%. With heavy jungle starts, after you grab land (which you can do since you can run 80% gold and still generate science from specialists) turtle up in your cities with longbows/catapults. These are both fairly inexpensive units for the time period and can guard important resources and your cities. Then, use all that green to generate commerce and start transitioning away from your reliance on the drama slider and caste system, hopefully being able to swap away just after researching guilds.

 

[Ibian]

I have been pondering the merits of the culture slider as a cottager for a while now. I use it for drafting as much as is needed, but beyond that... i think it has a little more use.

Its actually 5 happy faces from 20% culture. To compensate for a 20% drop in commerce, 25% extra people are needed. Easily done pre-endgame, and by then you can work all 20 tiles with 0% culture.

I see it as an alternative to the ever popular HR. It allows extra happy faces while making full use of specialists, and without having to mess around with garrison troops.

 

[Polobo]

6 if counting the happy from the coliseum (assuming you build this last you immediately get +2 happy instead of +1 if already at 20%).

Ignoring HR and with a religion you figure maybe 8 happy on average for non-capital cities, so you get close to a 75% increase in population capacity (your next build is probably the aqueduct from construction/masonry). Assign a couple to cottages for gold, a couple to scientists for science and a couple to farms to support the scientists. If you can't build farms then just cottage for gold so other cities can work scientists and/or hills instead of cottages, building research where needed.

 

[Ibian]

We dont count the happy faces at 0% culture. Because that would be silly and pointless. Its 5 from the slider with those buildings.

 

[BurN]

So you would build a library, but not bother with a university or any other research multiplier? Market, but no grocer? I'm curious if you could go into a little more detail about how you decide which buildings are worthwhile and which aren't.

Ideally, it seems like there would be some kind of rule of thumb we could all look to, like "it's worth spending X hammers on a building if it's going to improve your research by Y bpt." Maybe it can't be made that simple.

Well of course I get a university. It's too hard to give a good rule of thumb because it depends on so many things. But I think Dave's post is a good answer to your question.

Whip the granary.
Grow the city while slow-building a library.
Whip the library when it will add more beakers than the cottages you kill off.
Whip the university if you haven't built Oxford yet.
Whip the observatory when it will add more beakers than the cottages you kill off.
Whip the market when you have 1
Whip the grocer when you have 2
Whip the courthouse when upkeep hits 8
Whip the bank if you need to build Wall Street.
Switch to Universal Suffrage after towns have matured.
Build factory, coal plant, research lab with US hammers.
Build SS Casing.

Though this leaves the question, what if you're not in slavery. If your empire has a good GP farm, you might want to run caste which will give you more breakers.

In this case I would probably put a workshop down and slow build library/market/etc. Let it have low prod then, it will have many towns by the time you get to US so it can catch up in buildings.