lower warmonger penalty for atacking city state correct?

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May 17, 2011
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Warmonger Amount is applied to every civ that you've met. Capturing a city-state will earn you half the Warmonger Amount with other civs, as will capturing the city of a civ with which they are at war

source:
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Warmongering_(Civ5)

is it correct that you get a lower warmonger penalty for taking a city state? in gods and king and vanilla you get denounced for conquering a city state is this still in the game? or did they nerve it and can you atack a city state and conquer it withouth the whole word hating you?

obiously civs that protect them will hate you but others that didnt protect them?
 
If it says it, I'd say it's true, but it's more complex then that and here's the reason why:

Warmonger hate for capturing cities depends on the number of cities that civilization has and how many are in the world (as well as world size and era modifiers but we'll ignore that here). This is why taking cities from a guy who has 10 only gives you a "minor" penalty but taking one from a guy with only a few is "extreme" penalty. Because a city state only has one city you get the worst penalty for taking their "last" city. So even though the base penalty is lower, after these modifiers it's still pretty bad. I'm assuming they made this 1/2 base penalty change because they realized the last-city penalty was so bad for CS which is why you used to get denounced by everyone who knew you when you took one. But it's still pretty bad. Basically the change means you get the penalty of taking a city from a 2-city guy for city states which is still a lot of warmonger penalty and still in the "extreme" range. Make sense?
 
If it says it, I'd say it's true, but it's more complex then that and here's the reason why:

Warmonger hate for capturing cities depends on the number of cities that civilization has and how many are in the world (as well as world size and era modifiers but we'll ignore that here). This is why taking cities from a guy who has 10 only gives you a "minor" penalty but taking one from a guy with only a few is "extreme" penalty. Because a city state only has one city you get the worst penalty for taking their "last" city. So even though the base penalty is lower, after these modifiers it's still pretty bad. I'm assuming they made this 1/2 base penalty change because they realized the last-city penalty was so bad for CS which is why you used to get denounced by everyone when you took one. But it's still pretty bad. Basically the change means you get the penalty of taking a city from a 2-city guy for city states which is still a lot of warmonger penalty and still in the "extreme" range. Make sense? Because the penalty is less for early eras if you are going to take out a city state do it early, like ancient or classical. You'll get less hate that way but I still never bother, CS are better used as buffers, friends, or allies. Rarely are they "great" cities like the ones you can choose to found.

How about large maps? is the warmonger penalty for city states lower in that case?
 
It's complicated lol. The modifier for huge/large is actually LARGER but this is balanced by there being more cities in the world. They tried to balance it so the penalty would be about the same for all world sizes I think.

If you want to know the actual calculation here it is:
Warmonger_Penalty = 1000 x world_size_modifier/(total_city_number_in_world x cities_of_victim) x (0.5 if city state or other civ was also at war) x (era_modifier).

world_size_modifier is: 13 for Duel maps, 26 for Tiny maps, 39 for Small maps, 52 for Standard maps, 80 for Large maps, and 132 for Huge maps. This is actually an estimate for the number of cities though and should be cancelled out by total_city_number_in_world being larger as well.

era_modifier is: 50% of the normal number of warmonger points during the Ancient Era, 60% during the Classical Era, 70% during the Medieval Era, 80% during the Renaissance Era, 90% during the Industrial Era, and the full Warmonger Amount thereafter. This would seem to argue that you should take cities early then, but also keep in mind that the total_city_number_in_world is lower in earlier eras too, so it basically only cancels this effect. Still better to do it early though as you've met less people and have more time to repair relations.

As an example, let's say: standard world, everyone has founded 3 cities + 12 city states, classical era, to take one the penalty is:

Warmonger_Penalty = round(1000x52/((9x3+12)x(1)) x 0.5 x 0.6) = 400

Since warmonger penalty decays with everyone by 5 points every turn you can see how a huge penalty like this would damage relations for a long time. You'll be dealing with the consequences and extra AI hate for almost 80 turns here in this example and the denunciations negative relations will hurt trade, etc, having a trickle effect. Before the half change that penalty would have been almost 1000 and hurt you the entire game though, so it is a bit better now, still not worth it in my opinion.
 
It has been almost two years since they made this change, so I really would have expected to find good opportunity to test my theory, but old habits die hard!

I think the net of the mechanics are such that you can kill a single CS early (say in the ancient or classic) and expect zero long term repercussions. I decided about a year ago that I would try this tactic the next time a CS spawned near me with a juicy natural wonder. I am still waiting.

Is it correct that you get a lower warmonger penalty for taking a city state?
Yes, but the warmonger penalty late game is “extreme”. Half of an extreme penalty is still very bad.

in gods and king and vanilla you get denounced for conquering a city state is this still in the game?
Yes, quite. But early game, much less so. And the chain denouncements do not happen like they did.

or did they nerf it and can you attack a city state and conquer it withouth the whole word hating you?
Yes, if you do so early in the game. They dialed back the early game warmonger penalty, and also made the warmonger penalty less long lasting. The net is that all early war mongering is pretty easily forgiven. CS warmongering is part of this larger change, but nothing about this larger change is specific to CS warmongering.

Your second CS DOW will still cause all the CS to be wary of you. Presumably, your third CS DOW will cause all the CS to DOW you, but I have not tried that since the patch.

As I understand it, they did not apply this change to G&K or Vanilla.
 
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